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| Money and Numbers. |
Wow. Great article Pastor Briggs (RIP).
Here's the link. But, the article was deleted per Pastor Briggs' (RIP) facebook IM threats.
Here's another link to it. But, the article was deleted along with the rest of his blog's content after his death.
Very dramatic and emotional read; good writing. We all can relate to the tension that may fill the air when Senior Pastor Davis is in the room. I don’t think this Pastor Briggs testimony is propaganda (as some have shared). He is just relating what happened. His pain and damaged psyche come through loud and clear. Although NTCC will use it for propaganda, and Pastor Briggs is now a marked man, I believe he is sincere. Now NTCC can parade him out during conference as another "we are winning" victory over the Holy Spirit and Christian conscience. Expect him to be called upon to testify next conference; he may even preach.
In his article Pastor Briggs presents himself as a damaged and confused person longing for attention, and some semblance of Christian normalcy. Try to spend some time around him next conference, he will have renewed vigor in promoting the party line, while simultaneously doing his own thing back in Pasadena. He has a long road ahead in reestablishing his loyalty (if he is ever even able to, he can at least keep trying). Support him.
While I can appreciate most people’s fear of Pastor Davis (and understand Pastor Briggs' fear, as we have all seen Pastor Davis at his most vicious during class, conference, fellowship, etc), I can't relate personally. I never had a problem with NTCC 'policy', or Pastor Davis (other than his dirty jokes, racist jokes, and frequent use of the "N" word). I would possibly not feel this way if Pastor Davis had treated me as bad as we have all seen him treat others.
Of course we never did our own thing as Pastor Briggs shared he does. Deborah and I always toed the party line, and were company men. Pastor Briggs is the one who proudly brags about doing his own thing, and being his own man. So why the confusion about the whys and wherefores of organizational direction and leadership? He just ignores it (NTCC policy) anyway (so he’s said) in his striving (keep trying) for the mastery. Yet his striving has yielded a double mind; as Pastor Briggs account shows.
Pastor Briggs wrote, "...it was just that questions concerning the whys and wherefores of organizational direction and leadership were beginning to bring confusion within my mind"
Pastor Briggs also wrote Pastor Davis as saying, “But before you do brother I need you to talk to me from your heart. Don’t hold back, and don’t tell me what you think I want to hear just talk to me so I can help you”.
We have all also seen this before…NTCC will neglect, neglect, neglect…push, push, push…blast, blast, blast…flip-flop, flip-flop, flip-flop (this one is recent)—then the 11th hour, and they come forth manifesting their version of the Spirit of Christ (angelic choir soundtrack); assuaging any Holy Ghost inspired trepidations, and the cycle starts all over again.
This works (for a time) hand-in-hand with Pastor Davis recurring generic public Conference apology. You know the one (also recent), “If I have offended anyone, or done anyone wrong, forgive me.” But, even these vanilla amends don’t jibe with his frequent “All I do is by the Holy Ghost…I can’t remember the last time I sinned…I’ve never missed God” proclamations.
Again, one can definitely feel Pastor Briggs' pain and anguish, and can too easily pity him for the damage caused him, when reading this account.
ADDED 10/13/2012: Too bad Pastor Briggs didn't act upon his own perception, because then his family wouldn't be destitute.
ADDED 10/13/2012: Too bad Pastor Briggs didn't act upon his own perception, because then his family wouldn't be destitute.
In His Service,
Gregory
121 comments:
Yeah RWD is good at that one. "If I've offended anyone please forgive me".
I think he says that one every other conference. Notice that he throws the big "If" in the statement. That way he can go back and say that he never said that he knowingly offended anyone. He wanted to apologize just in case it might of happened.
If you don't know that it happened why in the world are you apologizing and what are you apologizing for?
Jeff
Pastor Briggs sent me this on facebook:
Robert Briggs October 25, 2010 at 2:34pm
Subject: I knew you were stupid enough to do this
It would serve you to read a web site before you break copywright laws. You vailed to read the following
© 2010 New Testament Christian Church, Pasadena, TX. All rights reserved. Unauthorized use prohibited. NTCC, Pasadena copyright materials may not be reproduced in whole or in part by persons, organizations or corporations other than the NTCC, its affiliates, divisions and units without the prior written permission of the NTCC, Pasadena.
So, you have 24 hours to take this unauthorized posting of my article on your site before I file suit.
Thanks Greg... You just made my day!
QUESTION: Is he asking me to take this down or ordering me to put it on our blog? The way it's worded it seems he will file suit if it's not on our blog. Is he jealous of the exposure Pastor Kekel receives? And doesn't Pastor Briggs have an accredited college degree?
I know 'fair use' covers our using his material, but does fair use allow him to force me to publish things on our blog?
Gregory
No Greg, I am saying you are violating copywright laws and have turned it in to your blog provider. You should know you can't "copy and paste" any content especially copywrighted material. If you took the time to read the entire blog you would know that.
Under general copyright law, if an original work has been copyrighted, the owner of that work has the exclusive right to use, publish, disseminate, or change that work for a certain amount of time. Another person or entity cannot use or distribute the work without the owner’s permission. If a person attempts to use or distribute the work without authorization, he or she may be found guilty of copyright infringement. This general copyright principle extends to works created or posted on the Internet. Internet copyright infringement occurs when a person or entity uses or circulates information over the Internet without authorization from the entity or person who has the exclusive, legal right to that information.
Internet copyright infringement is a form of intellectual property theft, and it can lead to significant legal penalties and security issues. Common Internet copyright violations include illegally downloading music files and movies as well as pirating certain types of software applications. Posting a copyrighted work, such as a drawing or writing, online without permission from the owner may also constitute Internet copyright infringement.
Online copyright infringement can result in a range of legal problems for unauthorized users. Typically, the penalties for Internet copyright infringement vary based on the severity of the crime. People found guilty of lesser types of infringement, such as illegally downloading a couple of music files, may simply be fined. Greater violations, however, can lead to jail time.
Fair use is a legal defense and does not allow for a persons complete work to be used as you have done. You had to disregard my notice, go around my "no right click" and fradulently register on my site in order to steal my work... the only thing fair use has worked on in the past is snipets of an original work with commentary and that ONLY for a short time. You can not take someones work in it's entirety nor can you leave your criticism of their work up forever....
Oh, and since where at it when is "DEB" going to rectify her lying to the public when she said this blog was primarily about "Her" experience? Who's lying now
But Pastor Briggs, my 24 hours isn't up yet. Gee-whiz, I have gotten myself into quite a pickle.
Please reconsider, it was an honest mistake. I didn't bypass any of your websites security. Someone brought your wonderful article to my attention, and provided me with a copy.
Although you are still not being clear, it seems you want the article taken down. Is this the case, or should I wait for legal action?
Deborah and I have a shared NTCC experience (as do you and I), so what I write is true for her (and you) also.
In His Service,
Gregory
Why wouldn't Robert want his article published ALL OVER THE WORLD and shouted upon the housetops? This article reveals Robert's TRUE feelings.
Robert if you did not want people to know what you are really thinking then why publish your article on the Internet for THE ENTIRE WORLD to see? (those that might be interested), & then you proclaim that Greg has MADE YOUR DAY!!!
If Greg has MADE YOUR DAY then you should THANK your FELLOW BROTHER IN CHRIST!!! Instead of
threatening to "...go to law with your brother, and that
before the unbelievers." Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you Robert Briggs, because you want to go to law with your brother in Christ, and that before the unbelievers!
What is it that you are offended about Robert?Paul the apostle wanted his writings to be published and encouraged THE WORLD to read them! Surely you want the world to read your articles also Robert? Surely you would not want any of your articles to be hidden? That's why you put it on the Internet to begin with!!!
Pastor Briggs,
I deleted your content with 15 minutes to spare. Phew, close one.
I also sent you a friend request on facebook.
Gregory
Gregory,
This is like comedy central over here. I think briggs needs professional help. Maybe some medication would help, seems like the dude has serious mood swings.
It seems like briggsy is a compromising ntcc minister that wants everyone to know how humble he was after realizing he was in a cult he slithered up to rwd hoping to leave the borg only to be easily persuaded to stick around and generate some more tithe and offerings.
This latest installment of stupidity is completely reprehensible and exhibits the ntcc's venomous attacks against those that oppose them. Briggs posted his Norman Rockwell portrait of his life for everyone to see and then gives himself way too much credit for "luring" Gregory into a trap. You gotta know by now briggs that you are a lightweight in this little battle that you've created. When you post things like this:
"So, you have 24 hours to take this unauthorized posting of my article on your site before I file suit."
You open yourself up to all kinds of criticism. There are about 20 things wrong with this comment, and I don't think it would stand in a court of law. First of all you moron, your article was not posted on Gregory and Deborah's site, just a link to your paid for website with copyrighted material. If you make your sorry website public and somebody posts a link to it, nobody is reproducing your copyrighted material. And you have the audacity to call Gregory stupid?
I wish I could buy you for what you are worth and sell you for what you think you are worth. I would be able to live off of the interest for the rest of my life.
The question is, would Greg still be an affiliate of the NTCC? Has his status been officially revoked in writing? Things that make you go hmmmmm.
Anonymous asked...
What is it that you are offended about Robert?
Jeff said...
Robert is not offended. He is a petty crook who designed and looked for a reason to file suit against whatever exNTCCer decided to repost his material. Briggsy isn't a Christian. He is a petty bully who creates situations which in his mind justifies him going after someone else. Does anyone think what I'm saying is not true?
Proof in Briggs own words: Subject: "I knew you were stupid enough to do this". Well if he knew that someone was quote "stupid" enough to do this then why would he even do the copyright. Because he gets off on filing suits? Does that sound like a Christian? To Briggs his blog was and is no more than a big set up to entrap exNTCCers so he can file suit. I have less respect for Briggs then I had before which was very little to begin with. He is supposed to be a pastor? Not in my book. He is more like a poopstor. This guy might be an NTCC pastor but he is not one of Gods pastors.
Jeff
I can't believe this man is supposed to be a minister of the Gospel. Mr. Briggs does need help. He is hardly qualified to give people spiritual or psychological advise. I really believe the guy has a genuine mental problem. I feel sorry for his church members and there is nothing funny about this situation.
Why didn't Paul allow the young demon posessed girl to give him praise.... I rest my case....
If Mr. Briggs doesn't want people to read his material than why does he even publish it? Just so he can file suit against people who copy it? If you don't have a problem with your own material than you should care less who posts it. It makes no sense other than being a legalistic formality. Typical of the New Testament Christian Church.
Yikes
"...go to law with your brother, and that
before the unbelievers."
HAHAHAHA you don't think this blog is doing just that... and for your information Greg has proven over and over to NOT be my brother in Christ. I asked him nicely when he put a link to my blog on his site to please for the sake of our friendship and for the kindnesses I have shown him and his wife and they are many, to respect my wish... that was met with silence and sarcasam... not something any brohter of mine ever did....
Pork Chop wiskers said
First of all you moron, your article was not posted on Gregory and Deborah's site, just a link to your paid for website with copyrighted material.
HA HA you call me a moron?? Did you not read Greg's own post
Pastor Briggs,
I deleted your content with 15 minutes to spare. Phew, close one.
I also sent you a friend request on facebook.
Gregory
Looks like you got Egg on your face... or is that Kiwi on your breath
HAHAHAHAH
Hey There Mr. Collins
That's the first piece of real insight you've had.... I did take all of the precautions necessary to ensure that should one of you losers break the law I could get you.
See that's one of the things I have disagreed with leadership on. You fools have broken so many laws through your web attacks, Dennis embezzelments, etc etc etc. If I were the one in charge you would all be in court, and some in jail.. but alas that's not to be on the Organizational level. But my work, now that's another matter. And MY Writing that's definitely another matter. And if I get a wiff of anything illegal I will be on you like white on rice.
Hey Don.. when your in town why not come see me...
Jeff Fuzzy Chin said
To Briggs his blog was and is no more than a big set up to entrap exNTCCers so he can file suit.
No, actually to me the blog is an extension of our local ministry. It is not intended to be a "global" presence even though it is online. Nothing on the blog is pertinent to anyone other then local NTCC people and their friends, family, and spiritual contacts period. But I also know you people can't keep your hands off of anything so yes, I put copyrights on everything and I have digital incription in the items as well... how do you think I found Greg's post within minutes?
Bottom line, if you want less agressive targets go hunt somewhere else.
I would like to know what the questions "concerning the WHYS and WHEREFORES of ORGANIZATIONAL DIRECTION and LEADERSHIP" were??? Because, like you said Robert, in your article, "...truth-be-told, the older I get the stronger my opinions seem to be."
Robert, What are these opinions? You also said in your article that you cannot back up when you think you are right or that at least you have a valid point. What are these points that you have that you "cannot back up on?"
"And then a hand motioned for me to come. I took a deep breath and began to walk." Robert Briggs, I really hope that your leaders are far more approachable than what seems to be portrayed here!!!
Do you still have any lingering questions concerning the whys and wherefores of organizational direction? Because "TRUTH-BE-TOLD" the older you get the stronger your opinions seem to be.
I agree with what you said in your article, don't back up when you think you are right or that you have a valid point.
Wouldn't we like to know what these questions were concerning the whys and wherefores of organizational direction and leadership are?
And what these "opinions" are that you have, that, if "truth-be-told" get stronger the older you get.
Thats what we like to hear Robert, THAT THE "TRUTH-BE-TOLD..."
RBRiggs said...
"Jeff Fuzzy Chin said"
Jeff said...
So you've looked real close at my picture, hey Robby? You're not gay are you? You know, one of them married dudes that's secretly looking at men real closely the whole time. Did you like my fuzzy chin? Just so you know I don't like men looking at me that closely. You should stick with Brandi Garcia.
briggs, briggs, brigs, ///
This song is dedicated to you.
Please note the "Copyright" and "All rights reserved" notation at the end of this YouTube video.
Hope "TheMusiclyricsman" doesn't get sued by a brother in Christ.
Here's the link.
Wow Robert your starting to remind me of Paul before he got saved, "...yet breathing out threatenings...", when you "threatened" "...I,ll be on you like white on rice..."
What happened to the fruits of the Spirit which are MEEKNESS and GENTLENESS, Robert? I am curious why you would not want your article published all over the world?
What is there to hide in your article? If people have questions about organizational leadership then why be afraid ask questions if something doesn't seem to be in the Holy scriptures? Your article should be published all over the world Robert starting with the New York Times...
btw, briggs, was it olson and davis who encouraged you to leave your other wife, Amy? Or were you simply not man enough to keep your vows?
Hey briggs, Jeff did have a pretty good point. Fuzzy Chin and Pork Chop wiskers? Sounds like somebody is paying too much attention to facial hair. If you paid as much attention to the lies that roll off of your tongue as you do the hair on guys faces, maybe your motives would not be so questionable.
Don and Ange
briggs said,
"HAHAHAHA you don't think this blog is doing just that... and for your information Greg has proven over and over to NOT be my brother in Christ. I asked him nicely when he put a link to my blog on his site to please for the sake of our friendship and for the kindnesses I have shown him and his wife and they are many, to respect my wish... that was met with silence and sarcasam... not something any brohter of mine ever did...."
Don and Ange say,
Do you think that lying is a sin? I do believe that the bible talks about a lying tongue; but you just can't help yourself; can you?
In your own words, you copyrighted your material because you "knew one of us losers would copy it." You then asked him, for the sake of your friendship, to take it down? The many kindnesses? You didn't want him to take it down. You said yourself that it was a trap. That makes YOU a liar. Here is another lie you were caught in:
Pork Chop wiskers said
First of all, you moron, your ARTICLE was not posted on Gregory and Deborah's site, just a LINK to your "paid for" website with copyrighted material.
HA HA! You call me a moron?? Did you not read Greg's own post:
"Pastor Briggs,
I deleted your content with 15 minutes to spare. Phew, close one." -- Gregory
Don and Ange say,
The content he deleted was a LINK, to be more specific the word "Here's" underlined. You are the author. Only you can delete the content, that is why Greg said "your content".
Greg also wrote to briggsy,
"I also sent you a friend request on facebook." -- Gregory
Don and Ange say,
Looks like YOU got Egg on your face... or is that Kiwi on your breath?
Here we go again. In briggs own words "I asked him nicely when he put a link to my blog on his site". The content is yours not Gregory's. Who's got egg on their face and kiwi on their breath?
continued below
Don and Ange
continued from above
HAHAHAHAH? Sounds more like briggsy is saying, "whaaah, whaaah, whaaah", like a baby with a wet soupy load in his diaper.
Is that your A-game briggs? Pork Chop Wiskers? Is that really THE BEST you can do? Jesus had a beard; or was that something else they plucked out of his face? You are so brainwashed that you can't even control what you say. It's really sad that you chose to go this route, briggs. So self righteous that you are stumbling over something that is not even a sin: a beard.
If you would have listened to your cult leaders' loaded language jargon, you would have "taken the high road" and not responded to any of this. At least then you would have gained some respect on both sides of the ntcc fence.
But we can tell by your anger and malice that you are not right.
The entire ntcc organization is warned not to visit our blogs; but ntcc still has to defend its positions; because they know that people in ntcc are not going to be obedient to the hypocritical borg leadership who come and read these blogs all the time. And then those people are going to find out and realize that they are in a cult. Then the ntcc money supply will be gone and you, briggsy, and your cult leaders will no longer be able to live in excess the lavish lifestyles that you are accustomed to. Once people realize ntcc is a cult run by selfish leaders with hidden agendas, they will leave. Then who will pay for your lawsuits? Who will clean kekel's house for no pay? Who will do tanya kekel's grocery shopping for her while she polishes her nails and eats bon bons while mulling over which ninety dollar scarf from Nordstroms she wants to buy on her next six hour shopping spree in the Sea-Tac malls???
Face it, briggsy, God was leading you out of ntcc's hypocrisy; but you were not man enough to follow through and obey God. You had to get permission from your cult leader; and he yanked you back by your short hairs. And now you are embarrassed because you caught in your double-mindedness. You put up your story, then took it down. You knew it would be copied; so you left it public long enough to trap someone into doing that. Then you hid the story and threatened lawsuit. Double minded. Conniving. Hypocrite. Baby. Not even man enough to follow through on a simple task: LEAVE ntcc
Don and Ange
song: uprising
artist: muse
lyrics:
The paranoia is in bloom, the PR
The transmissions will resume
They'll try to push drugs
Keep us all dumbed down and hope that
We will never see the truth around
(So come on!)
Another promise, another scene, another
A package not to keep us trapped in greed
With all the green belts wrapped around our minds
And endless red tape to keep the truth confined
(So come on!)
They will not force us
They will stop degrading us
They will not control us
We will be victorious
Interchanging mind control
Come let the revolution take its toll if you could
Flick the switch and open your third eye, you'd see that
We should never be afraid to die
(So come on!)
Rise up and take the power back, it's time that
The fat cats had a heart attack, you know that
Their time is coming to an end
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend
They will not force us
They will stop degrading us
They will not control us
We will be victorious
Hey .. hey ... hey .. hey!
They will not force us
They will stop degrading us
They will not control us
We will be victorious
Hey .. hey ... hey .. hey
lyrics: JohnysMusicChannel
There is no anger or malice in your posts!?
Ange and Don I have to to say, some of the things you guys write are so very hateful.Zero edification! Almost to the point of blood thirst!
Anonymous said,
"There is no anger or malice in your posts!? "
Don and Ange said,
I know it's unheard of for anyone to question or disrespect the borg leadership. Most of our anger is reflective anger and malice that we have had instilled in us from so many years of our lives being wasted in a cult. If you seen somebody walking blindly off of the side of a cliff, would you not do anything and everything to try to get their attention? Drastic times demand drastic measures. In a perfect world, you would think that people would listen to reason and change their ways, but it's not going to happen. The whole point of brainwashing somebody is to make them oblivious to outside influences so that they don't listen to any voices of reason, but they have to be made to think that if they do not follow their masters every wish and desire, that they will die and go to hell.
God's Word says, "Be ye angry and sin not". If I have lied or deceived in anyway, then maybe you are right, but what we speak on these blogs is passionate truth. I do not harbor any desires of ill-will towards ntcc, other than that which they bring upon themselves by manipulating and using people to build their filthy empire. I'm not blood thirsty or wishing and praying for them to die or be hurt physically. Would it hurt my feelings if they had to go through the same spiritual and emotional anguish that they have put others through with their "policies" of vasectomies, dating, hating all others not in the ntcc and so on and so on.....
When you are told who you can talk to, who you can love, who you can hate, who you can call, who you can have over to your house, what to do with your private parts, what to do with your money, what not to do with your money and what to look like and how to look down your nose at everyone else, you are in a cult and sometimes it takes a little anger and malice to warn the people to escape. "You will love God and you will Love Him the way we tell you to or you will die and go to hell". This is the ntcc. This is what they say to their members not in word always but in deeds. The pulpit is a powerful platform.
I make no apologies for the way I am or the way I come across. If I have hate or malice, the majority of it came from ntcc. I do not consider the leadership of ntcc to be saved, Christian people. The ntcc was born out of greed and has sought monetary gain, and used good people to obtain it from the beginning. Read this blog and look how people were treated 35 years ago when rdub started his cult. Reading about the way he treated members in the beginning, I have a hard time believing he was ever right with God.
"You will know them by their fruits".
If I posted anything edifying you would call me a hypocrite. If briggs posts hateful things you call him righteous so I wll be continue to be plain. If I continue to offend your delicate senses, please get over it. Don't take it personal unless it applies to you. If the shoe fits, by all means put it on and wear it.
Where do we go to church and what great things do we accomplish for God? We are normal people that are not involved with an exclusive organization that thinks its the only church going to heaven. We don't do anything spectacular but we do care about our fellow human beings which is much more than we were taught to do by the ntcc.
Don and Ange
Anonymous said...
There is no anger or malice in your posts!?
Ange and Don I have to to say, some of the things you guys write are so very hateful. Zero edification! Almost to the point of blood thirst!
Jeff said...
I don't agree with that at all. Don and Ange don't tip toe around all the NTCCs abuse. They tell it like it is. Nothing hateful about it. Was Jesus hateful when he called the Pharisees a generation of vipers as well as other names. Was Christ hateful when he railed on the religious hypocrites of his day? Of course not and neither are Don and Ange hateful. Read what they write. So they call a Spade a Spade. Are NTCC pastors hateful every they use the pulpit to verbally blast, attack, and belittle their church members for what they consider sin when half the time it isn't?
What, Don and Ange aren't allowed to write about the sins committed by NTCC pastors and the NTCC leadership? Next time you hear RWD, Ashmore, Kinson, or Jones preach against at other ministers or church members you need to tell them they are hateful and blood thirsty. You won't do it because you are morally weak. Then again you could prove me wrong and after you do it, post that you did it, and include your name. Now that is moral strength.
Forget about edification, there was no substance to what you just wrote at all. You didn't even give examples. Your post was just empty of any logical, noteworthy, or literary content.
Jeff
Just a comment about Briggs and Kekel deleting previously public writings. I think we should all look to the Bible and what Jesus did.
John 8:6-11 says Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground. Then he erased it, forbade anyone to repeat what they had seen, and threatened to go get his attorney. Hee hee hee.
Actually it says something different which all of you Bible scholars know, right?
Briggs your worried that your web site is being linked on someone's blog. That your main goal to having your blog is to try and trap one of us Xers,or as you use name calling,Losers!
BUT your master,leader put up personal e-mails that were between me and him on his blog. Then he accused that I was some Anon blogger on his blog. With no proof began to try and smear my good name. And this man is a Christian? I don't think so. Not until a good friend of mine,also a fellow cult escapee. Wrote to mike and chastised him for what he was doing on his blog. Did he take down the link!
And you briggs,putting up a blog just to try and trap others is very unchristian like. Just to take someone to court.
Let the world know what ntcc is really all about. Such people that run this Organization! Many of us that were genuine have left ntcc. What is left is kiss ups,brown nosers. That will do what they have to do to stay in good with the so called leaders of ntcc. That is why briggs is afraid of other men. Why is he afraid of his so called fellow Christians?
Maybe there is something to what all of us having been sharing!
April
Just a few observations:
The comment about Amy was totally uncalled for and really is no one's business except Robert & Amy.
Greg - you say you always followed all the rules - I remember the last time I talked to you in person was at conference and you told me, "I stopped asking permission to come to conference" in the context of coming from Korea which is very expensive.
Jeff - I was hoping to see more of the new kinder, gentler Jeff - but that didn't last too long. Why are you always accusing NTCC ministers of being homosexuals?
Robert - I enjoy your website and totally appreciate what you are doing with it. Keep up the good work!
Danny
Thank you Danny!
Danny,
Sorry about the slip...I should now say we always followed all the policy vice rules.
Good catch.
Thanks,
Gregory
Danny wrote...
Jeff - I was hoping to see more of the new kinder, gentler Jeff - but that didn't last too long. Why are you always accusing NTCC ministers of being homosexuals?
Jeff said...
If you thought that I was going to continue offering apologies day after day you are delusional. The fact is I was kind of hard on Mr. Briggs, (overly so) and out of good decency I figured I'd apologize to him. That doesn't mean that I agree with him anymore than I did before. And your last statement was categorically wrong and totally inaccurate. I said what I said to Pastor Briggs because he's showing a trend of paying particular attention to men's facial hair. That's rather odd to me especially because it's obvious (if you read the Bible) that Christ wore facial hair as well.
Every time Pastor Briggs makes a mockery of men with facial hair he is making a mockery of Christ. And once again, why is he paying particular attention to mens faces anyway, (hence my remark about gay tendencies). You can not find even one other occasion where I made any other mention of any other NTCC pastor displaying gay tendencies. So therefor Danny, your accusation was categorically inaccurate.
Consequently, and as a result, I didn't think your post was that great.
Additionally the question about Amy may not have been anyones business however it is indicative of the poor spiritual and moral condition of NTCC ministers who have a frequent history of divorce. That was the point being made. The other way to look at it Danny is if personal information is no ones business other than the person involved, then NTCC pastors have no business constantly getting involved with so many peoples personal affairs.
Danny, have you ever had the courage to tell an NTCC pastor that it was none of his business while he was putting out someone elses personal business right in the middle of church service? I didn't think so Danny. NTCC pastors are notorious for getting in the middle of everyones business because they are control freaks. They want to know everything about you so they can hold it against you and throw it in your face as soon as you decide to leave their church. They always have to justify why they weren't wrong because of you leaving their abusive church and that is precisely when they put your business in the streets which that they had no business finding out in the first place.
Now that is poor "business" and I figure it's my "business" to say so. Ha, ha.
Jeff
Danny said,
"The comment about Amy was totally uncalled for and really is no one's business except Robert & Amy."
Don and Ange said,
In an organization that preaches "My way or the highway" and that claims to be a bible believing church group, what is wrong with asking a question about a former wife to a member of a cult that has a higher divorce rate than most politicians and actors in Hollywood?
Nobodies business except robert and Amy's? Sorry Danny-boy but we are not talking about copyrighted material here. When robert briggs comes to this open forum to post his malicious and hateful propaganda, he enters the public domain and opens himself up to questions that the ntcc would rather not have addressed publicly.
Danny said,
"Jeff - I was hoping to see more of the new kinder, gentler Jeff - but that didn't last too long. Why are you always accusing NTCC ministers of being homosexuals?"
Don and Ange said,
This is what happens when you belong to a cult and jump into a conversation without reading the whole thread. The highly esteemed briggsy started this by his infatuation with guys facial hair and his intimate knowledge of the of the village people. You are so eager to stick up for your fellow cult leader that you don't even do your homework. Jeff is on a mission and if he chooses to be kind to you along the way, you ought to take him up on it. The majority of your positions are indefensible because you contradict your own doctrine over and over by breaking your own rules and then changing them, and nobody brings out the details of this hypocrisy better than Jeff.
Danny said,
"Robert - I enjoy your website and totally appreciate what you are doing with it. Keep up the good work!"
Don and Ange said,
We also enjoyed your website very much, robert. It is filled with very good blogging material, if you don't believe me just look at the comment count on this thread and on Jeff's. Keep up the good Work, robert. Please keep on posting and we will use your material, copyrighted or not. We are very grateful for the excellent material that you give us. If it were not for robert and kekel and others like you continuously contradicting yourselves, we would have very little to write about and a lot fewer visitors on both sides of the ntcc fence.
Ya'll have a happy Halloween if you choose to celebrate it and keep on contributing to the cause.
Don and Ange
P.S. We still keep the old ntcc teachings and do not celebrate Halloween, not sure if the ntcc has flip-flopped on this issue or not. We might, however, indulge in a piece of chocolate.
I am curious why Robert Brigg's article, "FEAR, FRUSTRATION, AND FACING PASTOR," would not be allowed to be published amongst all Believers all over the world???
As you said Robert, you want to try to expell the thinking that pastors are perfect and that they also have flaws.
Allowing your article, (FEAR, FRUSTRATION, & FACING PASTOR), to be published amongst Believers, could help people realize that pastors have faults also, and that sometimes they need to apologize to people they have wronged.
the brainwashing fog was starting to lift when Greg stopped asking persmission to attend a "conference".
Oh look the poster boy for ntcc is popping in. Danny boy!
And we are supposed to be polite and nice. Was Rw davis being nice and polite when he publically ridiculed people from behind a STAND! Was Mike K. being polite when he had grown adults stand in line to ask permission to live there lives. Yeah,we were treated so nice and polite while we were stuck in ntcc. No Briggs and Danny boy. Your days of staying hidden from the public are know GONE. And you can not threaten us with law suits. We all know that if you tried to do that. You would be in so much trouble with your so called leaders!! Bring the spotlight on this cult!! Playing right into our hand!!!
As you said the Gloves are off. We don't have to be polite and nice. If we were NEVER treated as grown mature Christian adults. If we did one little thing,that is KNOW ALLOWED! You would be ridiculed behind that stand. From one of ntcc many false teachers! BEWARE OF THIS CULT. They LIE to your Face and behind your back!!
April
Danny,
I re-read your comment to me.
Is there an accusation in there somewhere?
I am not really clear on your point.
Gregory
Greg,
I am not your accuser - nor your judge.
I was just making an observation.
From my experience being overseas, the leadership was genuinely concerned for the welfare of the brethren regarding the financial burden of making trips back to the States if we were not able to afford the expense. Checking with the leadership was not about some control trip - it was simply a desire to help on the leaderships part.
I'm not sure what else you are wanting me to say - but I really am not looking for a fight.
Peace,
Danny (the non-poster boy)
Danny,
Fair enough. I just don't see any observation in your observation.
Also, I don't want you to say anything, I just want(ed) to understand the point of what you wrote.
I had no problem checking with the leadership about anything/everything, and have shared as much online.
As far as a fight, I leave that to Pastor Briggs, Jeff, and others.
Are you Rev. Brill?
Gregory
Greg wrote...
As far as a fight, I leave that to Pastor Briggs, Jeff, and others.
Jeff wrote...
And rightfully so because me and Pastor Briggs like a good fight every now and then. If there is one thing Pastor Briggs and I have in common it's that we don't mind a good fight. It's like a love hate relationship. Strangely enough, (even though I think he is twisted by a corrupt, mind controlling, money hungry organization) somethings I think Pastor Briggs is alright.
I'm starting to kind of think the guy is alright every now and then. That is about as good of a compliment as he is going to get from me, (for all it's worth because I understand it's not worth much).
Jeff
Mmmm.Danny has no trouble checking with the leaders. One that is his Father in law!
You had there daughter with you. Of course they would be concerned for your welfare. make sure you well taken care of. As you graduated BS and went right out on the missionary field. When it had been shared in RW Class that ministers DID NOT go right out on the missionary field. They had to prove themselve's first. BUT Olson could not pay your salary in a pioneer work in the states. Like he did on a missionary work!
Only the PETS are well taken care of in ntcc. Look at who gets the attention and the multitudes that get Ignored!
"Briggs posted his Norman Rockwell portrait of his life for everyone to see and then gives himself way too much credit for "luring" Gregory into a trap."
***Priceless***
Oh, wait a minute!!! Have I violated some kind of copy write laws?
Fact Check:
I spent almost two years helping pioneer a church in Denver, CO. - no salary from the church - but gladly gave money to support the church.
Later, I spent over four years working full time for the church in St. Louis as minister usually seven days a week. Yes, I was paid, but I worked for it.
God sent me to Germany and then to England. God took care of me and many would testify our time in Europe was stamped with God's seal of approval.
I do not claim to be anyone great. I am simply the result of God's mercy... and without that - I am lost and undone.
My ministry in NTCC has not been one of preferential treatment. In fact, I can think of many occasions where my family ties to the organization have incurred a greater scrutiny of myself for the sake of avoiding preferential treatment.
So, "Anon" - you may not know all that you think you do.
However, I am not here to debate with individuals who hate NTCC and are determined to put a negative spin on anything positive about the church that is shared.
Many of the things posted by the anti-NTCC lobby are inaccurate and the spirit that motivates the posters usually is not worth responding to; in my opinion.
My current passing through this gauntlet of bitterness was only to stand up for Robert. It grieved me to see the way he was being treated, so I spoke up for him.
It is no surprise to find I became the target of more false accusations. I can only hope that the few facts I shared will dispel some of the misinformation currently being shared about me.
Danny (the non-poster boy)
Greg,
It's not often we get to read the truth of how a current ntcc pastor feels, but is afraid to say.
You are absolutely right about the neglect and pushing away and then at the last second, wait don't dispair in the 11th hour. It is truly like an abusive relationship.
That's all I have to say. Briggs, you might want to check and see if I broke any laws with this comment cause I know how nervous it makes you when people exercise their free speech ;)
Free speech is fine, plagarism is not :0
danny the non-poster boy said:
"My current passing through this gauntlet of bitterness was only to stand up for Robert. It grieved me to see the way he was being treated, so I spoke up for him."
Don and Ange said,
I guess it's hard for some to see your point, danny. Many of us went through a whole bunch of unnecessary mistreatment and suffered much while in the ntcc. Nobody is allowed to leave peacefully, but they are either forced out or publicly denounced for leaving. I actually left on my own terms and went the wrong direction in life. I refused to blame the ntcc for anything, and would not even think in my mind that ntcc was wrong. I actually was so diluted that I believed that anyone who left the ntcc was doomed to spend eternal life in the lake of fire.
Why would anyone think that? Where did I learn that? Why do people that are in ntcc think that it is a sin to talk to a single woman in the ntcc. Does the ntcc preacher come right out and rebuke the trespasser of that non-biblical rule? Sometimes he does, but often times it's through many deceitful comments and remarks directed to an individual by an ntcc preacher and has nothing to do with conviction.
It hurt you to see rb go through a "gauntlet of bitterness"? Are you kidding me? rb brought much more bitterness into this blog than he will ever leave with. It just amazes me how you ntcc self-righteous preachers can come into an open X-er forum and every sentence that rolls off their tongue is filled with bitterness and hatred towards us, and then we are expected to be on our best behavior as if we were "ntcc Christians" and subject to all of your mind control tactics. You guys are so entrenched in your self-righteousness that you have no clue to the harm you are causing to souls of men and women.
It is this simple: You preach standards that are miserable to live by. You then break your own rules that were non-biblical to begin with. Because you broke your own rules, you then have to change them or make up a phony reason to justify why you broke them in the first place. You do this as an organization to cover for the sins of the leaders that are in the highest places in the ntcc without any regard for those that are in the lowest places in the ntcc, struggling to survive and live up to your lofty expectations.
If robert had to journey through a gauntlet of bitterness, it is his own fault because he chose to participate in this exercise of self-justification by posting a public blog in which he exalted himself as a humble servant of God and then felt the need to put on a phony facade and jack up a bunch of people who no longer follow the ntcc false teachings, nor are bound by any of its cultish rules or teachings.
You came onto this blog posting misinformation when you said,
"Jeff was always accusing NTCC ministers of being homosexuals."
If you were not so one-track minded, you would have known that these attacks of homosexuality were started by briggs, not Jeff. Then, you have the audacity to make yourself a victim by saying,
"It is no surprise to find I became the target of more false accusations".
Now after gracing us with your presence you are going to leave the blogosphere saying,
"I can only hope that the few facts I shared will dispel some of the misinformation currently being shared about me."
Now you know why we will not roll over and let you trample all over us. Go back to your pulpit and continue to do what you do. You have never done me wrong, but if you come onto this blog or any like it, you open yourself up to this "gauntlet of bitterness" and you better believe that if you can dish it out, you will definitely have it served back to you. We are the X-ers and we stand united.
Don and Ange
And Nicole, while you did not break any laws you broke some laws of grammar... just say'in
It is NOT hate for ntcc. IT is Anger being LIED to. And watching ntcc cover up there lies! Who lies and who compromises. Who is the hypocrite. You think we are attacking a church. We are attacking a cult. With whatever Spirit you think we have. We will expose this cult!!!
April
Pastor Briggs,
Is this the real problem...plagiarism?
We gave you full credit for your excellent article, so there was no plagiarism involved (nor copywright violation).
As I wrote before, fair use covers our purpose for using your entire edifying article.
Please note, your copywright notice makes your content no more protected than ours, which contains no notification.
Gregory
Greg I have explained already that I did not want your endorsement of what we wrote. Though your words as such were at times kind. Was your motivation in bringing it on to your blog kindness? Did I not ask you to leave me out of your fight? Why didn't you respect my wishes and leave me out and off of your blog? There was no need for the first link nor for the article posting.
Again, why did Paul rebuke the young woman who followed him around saying "These men are the servants of the most high God" she was telling the truth, he should have wanted everyone to hear what she had to say right.. so why didn't he? He did not want to be associated with her and I don't want association with your endeavor.
Don.... I did not "Come on here" out of the blue for no reason I came on here because I was drug on here. I tried in private to resolve the situation as Greg's scripture on the heading of his blog states. Since he does not go to my church I could not take it to a set of "elder's" for moderation. And his refusal to even engage me in private conversation with explanations told me that he was not willing to negotiate with me. So, I did what I had to do. You wouldn’t begrudge me that right would you? Oh, who am I kidding of course you would.
And Don, for the record every sentece rolls off of my key board... just keeping you straight!
Since Jeff Keeps deleting a part of this story from his blog I figure you might not mind keeping it in it's entirety Greg....
Now there came a point in that year when I was frantic. I was in trouble when I came, I was now in a live or die state. It came to a point where I couldn’t do it anymore we had an argument and I quite and was headed out to my car. Brian and Al followed me and tried to talk me into “staying”. In our argument which issued about the situation I did throw down my brief case. I did stand face to face with Al and I did curse the word was Sh** and I did say I couldn’t take it anymore. Only three people where there Me, Al and Brian and only we can say what actually happened.
We worked things out that day. I stayed on and after the second year I was grossing close to $100,000 (over 6,000 a week). When that happened the brothers who couldn’t help me when my checks were low wanted then to cut my checks back because I was making to much. Well, my response was simple. You didn’t give me help then your not going to cut me back now. If they could only pay me what I was earning when I was selling less then $100 a week. When I had 6,000 they couldn’t start hedging either.
There is much more I could write about our “discussions” while I worked there but there is no need but let me say this of what I have written above. It was a sin when I cursed…. And I did have to repent… That would have unfit me from the ministry if I was in the active ministry at the time… I was not because I had removed myself.
But let me ask you something would any of you be willing to reveal things so personal about yourself? How about my article you wouldn’t dare to do something like that when you were “in” but why? Because like the woman with the make-up you are to concerned about what people think of you. I even told this story to some brethren at fellowship tonight after church. I don’t have anything to hide.
Anyway, I take that with Jeff’s new found niceness and Greg’s confirmation my articles will remain on my blog and not be copied and brought here. And so I go to do my work. If anyone wants me the email exchange is the only way I will now respond because this is going back to what we have already talked about (this same information above is written on factnet if you want to search through the reams of useless information contained there.
Good bye
Since it keeps getting deleted on Jeff's blog I thought you wouldn't mind posting this
Inquiring minds want to know about the “Knights” experience.
Well lets go there shall we and then we will be through here, you’ve wasted to much of my time already.
In 2003 I was at a very difficult time in my ministry. I was pastoring in Chattanooga but things were tough. I had a good job but the church was not so good. Though it was larger then ever before. And though it had more money than it had the bills were still not being met by the offerings and tithe. I of my own free will and discretion took my personal finances and paid church rents and utilities while neglecting my own. Finally I couldn’t do it anymore and asked for either a replacement or church closure. The latter was the course that was determined. I asked if I could come back to Washington to get my financial status in order and to regroup and figure out what God wanted done in my life. That permission was given.
Next I called a (then) good friend (Brian) and asked if they had a job. I had a toddler, a 7 month pregnant wife, and about $250 to my name. A few days passed and he told me come on we will figure something out. That was good news. He asked me to give them as much time as I could so they could figure out what they could help me with and that I should call them when I was headed their way. We then decided to spend a week with my wife’s family (Lubbock, TX) and a week with my own (Phoenix, AZ) to give them time. I called as he asked when we got to Phoenix.. no answer left message. A day before we were to leave called again.. left message again. I called that night (I believe it was) and left another message saying “Brian I need to know before I leave here if you guys have something for me. If not that’s fine but I don’t want to bring my wife up there if I don’t have a job waiting for me” no return call.
So the day I was to leave I decided that the best course was to leave my wife with her family. At this point I didn’t think I had a job waiting (which I was right about) and I didn’t want to take a chance on not having a place for us to stay. Figured it was easier for me alone and more comfortable for her to be with her family.
Fast forward 6 months or so. Finally I got a job with the “brethren”. My deal was this. You sell and get 2% commission on everything you sell. No base salary just commission. An average insulation job is about 1200 or so for a normal house. Two percent of that is $24 so you can see I had to sell a lot to make a living. For the first 12 months I worked their I had some pay check of a less then $100 with a low of $54. By this time I had my wife there, my daughter, and my new son. I worked 10 – 12 hours a day five days a week. My first years gross was around $12,000.
Pastor Briggs,
HELPFUL HINT: As you could have known, this blog is moderated (it says so right in the header).
So comments don't get posted until I click on the 'box', and click 'publish'.
I check Deborah's blog almost everyday (at least 25 days per month), therefore everyone's comment gets posted in a somewhat timely manner (no need to re-post stuff up to 6 times).
But, you may continue to do (of course) what you have been doing to post comments, your choice either way.
Gregory
Another helpful hint; Don't accuse Jeff of something he did not do. That's called lying. Your article was also posted in its entirety on Jeffs blog multiple times along with a new post that holds you in high regard.
Don and Ange
I just posted on Jeff's blog and it has not shown up yet. I'm not accusing him of not posting it, neither am I going to repost it 20 times.
Pastor Briggs wrote..."Anyway, I take that with Jeff’s new found niceness and Greg’s confirmation my articles will remain on my blog and not be copied and brought here. And so I go to do my work."
Pastor Briggs,
I never wrote your article will not be copied and brought here, I merely deleted it for now; per Jeff's advise (as a friend, he is concerned for my welfare; only in deference to him is it gone).
But, one wouldn't be wrong in expecting it to re-appear in the future, in the same place (I saved the spot for it), and for 'fair use' use in its entirety.
Gregory
Pastor Briggs,
$6,000 per week is $312,000 per year; not "close to $100,000" per year.
Quite impressive either way. I am gladdened by this testimony of your past success.
Gregory
Good catch on the math, Gregory.
I just pointed out on Jeff's blog that his frustration with his experiences in ntcc seemed aimed at all the wrong people.
Greg... had to jump in you are absolutely right.. I typed week when I should have typed month There were some that were higher 6,000 was average... that math should fit closer to my yearly for you.
If you feel the need to post I understand, just understand if I need to do what I have to as well.
Bye
Oh, and I think Jeff explination indicates what happened on his blog. He didn't erase the postings so Jeff I appologize.
Goodbye
Robert seems quite proud of his "years gone by" 100,000 earned for one single year. I've heard him boast of this before.
Robert has been known to pressure "his"
members to give even more because what they were giving was not enough.
Robert's carving business alone hardly pays the bills. If he needs to he has been known to pressure "his" people to give until he thinks it's enough. But there is still no financial disclosure, it's kept secret.
Robert Briggs, your website has some interesting content but it all comes to nought when you come on Jeff's blog and try to slander me again. With you trying to slander me again you can forget me visiting your blog again.
First of all Robert Briggs would you please stop with your lies. Find out if what you are saying is true first, before trying to slander someone. Remember you are "supposed" to be a Christian first "let alone" an example to others.
Since you want to lie about me then I should have the right to answer for myself.
The first lie#1 you told, and I quote, "The man's son, wife, and sister in law brought a cell phone video to me of him masturbating..."
My wife ONLY told you about the video. My son & sister in law never brought you no such video. You then wanted my wife to send the video and she could not do it.
You never saw any video of me masturbating. Have you ever masturbated Robert Briggs? and why ON EARTH would you want to see a video of me masturbating???
What me and my wife did between me and her was our business alone. Why she wanted to show you the video I do not know. Do you think it's a sin to masturbate Robert? If thats the case then you would be a sinner.
Your lie#2 that you told is that I made a video of me talking about "my hatred for blacks and hispanics and my desire that they should all die." YOU NEVER SAW NO SUCH VIDEO AND I NEVER SAID NO SUCH THING!!! You owe me an apology.
I gave the best 15 years of my life to my Hispanic wife. If you REALLY wanted to know what I said on that silly video I made why did you not ask me? Or at least get 2 or 3 witnesses.
You continued on with your slander, "Now that was just one of many, many, instances..." Wow Robert that is a nice way to keep you from thinking up more lies just to say "many, many, many,"
If they are so many "instances" then let's hear some more of your false witness and trying to slander me instead of just saying, "...many, many, many," like your some sort of judge that we must approve ourselves to.
You went on to say, "I am not however overly optimistic when their patter of behaviour spanned a total of more than 20 years..." Wow Robert I didn't know you were watching me for 20 years!!!
I was telling people about Jesus when you were doing chocolate meth. You don't know me & then you act like some pious judge that has determined my "pattern" for 20 years.
You need help. Then you "tried" to accuse me of some silly "poop smearing" incident that occured in front of "your" church.
And then there was the "Crumb" incident when Crumb told me himself you made him suspicious of me & then you called me up YELLING and SCREAMING with your "so called passion" falsely accusing me of talking about you to Jonathon Crumb.
You tried to get others in "your" church to spy on me and report in to you including Jonathon Crumb. You were desperate to find something. Why? Only you really know Robert but you did me a favor for sure.
God has blessed me tremendously since you "cast me out of the synagogue."
The last conference you were wondering whether or not to resign your pastorialship? You need help Robert.
I can totally understand you wanting to resign but regardless, you owe me an apology for lying about, trying to slander me, and bearing false witness against me.
Anonymous Said,
"First of all Robert Briggs would you please stop with your lies. Find out if what you are saying is true first, before trying to slander someone. Remember you are "supposed" to be a Christian first "let alone" an example to others."
Don and Ange said,
Sounds like briggs is a habitual and pathological liar. I wonder if he lies to his family, friends and congregation. Slander is a pretty low thing to be accused of. If what he says is true than it is not slander, but anonymous makes a pretty compelling argument.
We know that briggs has been caught posting lies, jumping to conclusions and making insinuations and false accusations. It seems like just about every sentence that "rolls off his keyboard" is questionable.
ntcc did not pursue denis when he allegedly embezzled money because ntcc DOES NOT WANT THE IRS OR ANY GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS LOOKING INTO ntcc's CASH-ONLY, NO RECEIPT, MONEY MAKING EMPIRE!
Everyone knows that I often don't agree with Pastor Briggs' way of thinking as I've clearly displayed by debating with him on my blog and this one also.
Having said that, sometimes Pastor Briggs is (for the most part) right concerning his assessment of certain people. Some of what Pastor Briggs writes about (certain people) is credible because I've verified it myself. In all fairness, all I'm saying to my friends is that everything that Pastor Briggs writes about people is not necessarily a lie or even a lie at all.
We all know that I can't stand the NTCC and Pastor Briggs is a part of it. I believe Pastor Briggs thinks like many NTCCers however I don't think that he is totally blind to the NTCCs ways. Just a thought that I figured that I'd share. We all may not be so different from Pastor Briggs as we've often thought. I've learned a lot from Greg's temperance. Don't be too quick to judge a book by it's cover as I've often been guilty of doing.
Jeff
Thank you Jeff.
Jeff Collins said, "I don't believe that Pastor Briggs is totally blind to the NTCCs ways."
Pastor Briggs said, "Thank you Jeff."
Good point Jeff!!!
I agree with you that Pastor Briggs is not totally blind to the NTCCs ways. He is starting to question the "Whys and Wherefores" of organizational direction and leadership, as he said in his article.
Plus he is coming on Greg and Jeff's blog daily, observing, making comments, welcome aboard Pastor Briggs!!!
Jeff said...
If you are right your are right Pastor Briggs. I know you are right concerning your assessment of certain peoples character. I'll leave it at that.
Good day Sir.
Jeff
I'm posting this again while I'm logged in to my account so there is no doubt whether or not someone is just posting using my name. It's me, Jeff Collins. If I've thought Pastor Briggs was wrong about something I've been quick to speak against him. Everyone knows that. Well he is not wrong concerning his assessment of certain people. I do my homework before I make certain determinations. Pastor Briggs has been right a few times when he has been accused of being wrong. Just because he is in the NTCC (and we don't like the NTCC) doesn't automatically make him a false witness. Hey I've written countless posts slamming Pastor Briggs. I figured I could write a few speaking on his behalf.
It takes a lot of nerve for him to come on a few blogs which are clearly dominated by some seriously opinionated exNTCCers who aren't too bad at expressing themselves. I can at least respect the guy for standing up for himself and if someone has been wrong about Pastor Briggs and I know it, I don't have a problem standing up for him either. He and I both know what I'm talking about and it can be left at that.
Just read a few of the threads and it's not to hard to figure out. If names are being left off by all associated parties I figure I'd leave off names as well.
Pastor Briggs: Let me fight this battle. If the battle continues, I'm planning on fighting on your behalf. You (as well as anyone), know how I can get and conversely, I know how you can get. If it's left alone then it's done. If it's not, I plan to interject and all you have to do is sit back and enjoy the show. It could get interesting but hopefully it doesn't.
Jeff
I agree with you, Jeff in principle on much of what you say concerning RB. While I will say that Briggs is a stand-up guy for coming on these X-er blogs and that he is the only minister that I know of that's not scared to use his name and share his true feelings, it is hard for me to forget some of the things that we went through in the ntcc. I'm of the opinion that the best way for people to realize that the ntcc is not right is to make sharp contrasts between their behavior and what I believe a bible believing church should be all about; thus we use this forum to passionately share our opinions.
I'm not going to apologize to R. Briggs for anything I've said but I do realize that I have the tendency to get pretty harsh and the way I come across may not be conducive to accomplishing the goals that we desire to achieve on these blogs. My goal is for people to see that there is Christianity outside of the ntcc and that many of the practices of many of the churches in the ntcc are similar to that of cults.
I also am aggressive in these forums because the ntcc is aggressive in the way the treat people. My wife and I have been through much more than we care to go into on these blogs that is directly attributed to our time in the ntcc and we feel very deeply that attention needs to be drawn to the unchristian examples that some in the ntcc lead. In all fairness to Robert, I have never been around him and therefore I do not know how he runs his church. I sometimes see what appears to be the same attitude of many of the ntcc leadership, and I forget that I once had that same attitude. I do think it is important to draw attention to it, because it's destructive in so many ways and on so many levels.
Three months ago I was living in sin and God saw fit to have mercy on my soul and pull me out of it. It was at this time that I also dared to take a look at the ntcc for what it is and what it was. When I was a member, I never knew about the double standards and refused to take an honest look at what I was a part of. I now see the hypocrisy of the minority that live a certain way but expected us to live differently.
It seems like it's getting closer to the holidays, the seasons are changing and everyone is lightening up a little and trying show kindness, so we also will attempt to do the same. We appreciate everyone that participates in these blogs and hope all have a happy Thanksgiving and a wonderful Christmas.
Don and Ange
Very good comment Don and Ange. I hope we all have a blessed and prosperous holiday and may God continue to have love and mercy for us all!!!!!!! God bless our troops in harms way fighting for our freedom!!!!!!!
Interesting article...... Unfortunately Briggs all of your fears are real about NTCC. It's a hard decision to make, when you finally have had enough, and you decide that you want to leave NTCC. It's not easy... in fact one of the hardest things you may ever do. The sad thing is, you got cold feet, and should have resigned as you were talking to Joe Olson. It's what I did, and do not regret to this day. But you didn't, and now they will do everything they can to retain you, while all the while keeping a watchful eye on you, and your church. Don't be surprised if you are moved from Pasadena, to a smaller less successful work, or even told to come back to Graham.
As far as threating Greg with a law suit.... BS! You don't have the time or the money to carry out such idle threats, and even if you did, Why would you? Greg if I were you, I would repost the article, draw a line in the sand, and see what he's made out of. The worst that could happen is you would recieve a form letter from an attorney, or a phone call saying you have to remove the article. Anyway..... You had your chance to break free Briggs, but you dummied up at the last minute. Oh well better luck next time.
Don wrote...
It seems like it's getting closer to the holidays, the seasons are changing and everyone is lightening up a little and trying show kindness, so we also will attempt to do the same. We appreciate everyone that participates in these blogs and hope all have a happy Thanksgiving and a wonderful Christmas.
Jeff said...
Don, make no mistake about it. We and in this case to make it more personal, "I" really appreciate you and your friendship and your genuine comradery on these blogs. Buddy I know where you stand. You don't mix your words and I like someone who shoots straight. No beating around the bush with you and buddy I really respect that. You are also a good writer. These blogs "need" more people like you, who can effectively express themselves while letting folks know what the NTCC is really all about. There is a definite cause here and we are the X-MEN. (And WOMEN). Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Jeff
Anonymous said,
"Greg if I were you, I would repost the article, draw a line in the sand, and see what he's made out of."
Don and Ange said,
I never knew the article was ever posted on this blog. I thought that there was a link to it posted here, but don't remember the actual article ever posting here, however, it's possible that I'm wrong. I do however know that there is a link that you can copy and paste into your browser that will bring up R. Briggs article. In that sense, the article was never taken off of this site.
Don and Ange
Hey Jeff,
Thanks for your kind words, they are greatly appreciated. It's good to know that we are not alone out here. Hopefully more people will feel comfortable about expressing themselves on these blogs and they will find refuge from the storm. We really appreciate everything you and Greg have done to assist us in getting our blog up and running and for your continual moral support and contributions to our posts and comments.
See you in the trenches my freind!!!
Don and Ange
Matthew 25:41-45
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
"For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
"I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Than shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not of the least of these, ye did it not to me."
Borg Assimilation, The M-word, and Making Money ntcc - style
Nope. It's not a typo. It's "M" as in ...
Nope. It's not a typo. It's "M" as in ...
Mike makes money off misused martyred minions.
Interesting. Sis Ashmore's blog has the copyright at the bottom also. These NTCC folks are so paranoid. Everything they do has cult written all over it. I could care less if folks copy every last letter on the blog that I moderate. I got nothing to hide.
Just imagine if Jesus, Peter, Paul, John and James all put copyrights on their material while expressly forbidding that anyone copy it. There'd be no Bibles. Imaging is Moses forbade that anyone copy his material or David or the Prophets? They didn't seem to have anything to hide. The fact is if NTCC people really believed that all their material truly came from God or at least what they wrote was Godly, they'd be glad if folks reproduced it. It's called the "GOSPEL". The good news, i.e. getting the word out.
The NTCC is a cult and always has been and for a long period we were too blind to see it. There are more NTCC blogs popping up than fleas on a wild dog. These NTCC women have extensive blogs with much material and extra links that frankly put my blog to shame. They got video, pictures, and every other kind of extra you can think of. They've got a ton of time on their hands to put all that stuff together. I know how much time must be invested and many of their blogs dwarf mine from a content standpoint. They'd be better off getting a real job because they are putting an awful lot of time into their websites and blogs. I guess that makes them Godly.
Here is what it takes to be a "Godly" NTCC women. Sit at home and produce a blog or website that rivals that of a computer science major. Learn about every diet imaginable so that you can loose the weight you gained sitting at home all day on your blog. Go to the local fitness center and shop for bargains when you are not on your computer. Sit in church 5 times a week which makes you gain more weight especially being that you eat late at night after church which mean you really have to learn about the latest diets. Drink cool-aid all the time because you can't afford juice especially in the serviceman's homes. Say Amen over and over every time your husbands preaches and even when he is abusing his church members. Say "YES SIR" to your husband. Wait on your husband hand and foot and keep your mouth shut while the men are in conversation. And lastly. Watch your husband die and find yourself working at Walmart till the day you die because your not qualified to do anything else.
Buddy, from what I've seen I'm not too far off. About the only thing that makes an NTCC woman different from a lot of other women is that they wear a dress, (when they are not at the Gym) try and grow their hair long, (which many other women do also) and don't wear jewelry on their skin because they sure wear enough of it on their clothes in the form of broaches and pins and jewels on their shoes and watches and extra rings because their husband had to upgrade their wedding or engagement rings.
The NTCC is all about outward appearance and that is their big thing. PERIOD, POINT BLANK end of story. Copy all my material you want. Flip it, change it, twist it; it don't bother me a bit. I know what the NTCC is all about and I got nothing to hide.
Jeff Collins
Anonymous,
That's pretty funny. But you missed the actual "m" word that is ...
Brother and Sister Shunk, can you or I please delete my comments on your blog? I apologize, but I would like to delete them. I could not delete them all because I did not use my gmail account when I left the majority of them. I would sincerely appreciate this.
Kristofer
I left a lot of comments on your earlier threads. I don't mean to inconvenience you.
I am wondering if Greg experienced a similiar instance of "Fear and Frustration in Facing Pastor Davis" when he made the decision to go to Idaho and not return to Graham.
--Caesar
Kris,
There are over 800 messages to go through, I am in college, and don't have time for anything extra. You will have to wait until January. My semester ends then, and I am taking a month break. I'll get to it then.
Gregory
Greg, we are glad you don't have time right now to delete Kris's comments.
Kris wrote such good comments with real insight to how ntcc operates based solely on his personal experience and growing knowledge of the bible. It seems counterproductive to remove these true stories.
We wonder if Kris has left the ntcc only physically, but is still held captive by the ntcc spiritually.
ntcc uses fear to control people. ntcc even twists a natural fear or reverence of God into an unnatural fearful spirit that makes people do strange things. People are too afraid of God; we wonder if that is the case here too.
God did instruct not to touch his anointed; yet God also records instances of His anointed being corrected and even rebuked.
The bible admonishes to study the word so we can rightly divide the word of truth.
God never intended our reverence of Him to cause us to hide hypocrisy. Jesus clearly openly rebuked the hypocrites, warning them of impending judgment.
We don't need to fear eXposing ntcc's rampant hypocrisy, and double standards, and blatant sin. We should see it as our duty to sound the trumpet to warn others of the ntcc's false doctrines just as the apostles clearly did in the many books of the new testament. They constantly detailed the differences between real Christianity and hypocrisy. There is no shame in the truth and no need to delete or hide our comments or articles based on real life experiences and knowledge of the truth.
Don and Ange
Don and Ange,
I am not happy I cannot accommodate Kris' request right now. I don't know why he wants his comments removed, and I am not going to ask. He can have good reasons, or no reasons. We are all free now.
I know he has deleted the content of his blog also.
Gregory
Perhaps Kris has been experiencing a portion of "The Fear and Frustration" in Facing God.
It is possible that a significant percentage of the comments made by Kristopher Moore on this blog were not 100% truthful; and It is possible that Kris, reacting to an attack of the conscience, is seeking to amend his prior, less than accurate comments.
In this quest for Truth in all matters Spiritual, we must leave no stone unturned as Witnesses voluntarily take the Stand and present Testimony that will be entered into the High Court's Eternal Record.
Greg has informed us that he has archived all of Pastor Kekel's blog, regardless of the several and frequent instances of "wiping", "purging", "formatting", or whatever term you wish to use.
So also, we must remember that all entries to this blog, comments included, are archived into a secure, un-hackable, database, to be used in future Court Proceedings.
Hey, Just a Theory, for what it's worth.
--Caesar
I totally understand that you are busy, and I appreciate that you will get around to it when you find the time around your busy schedule. I will just send you the exact links to the pages that have my comments so you don't really have to search too much (if and when you do find time).
Here they are. I guess there was really only two pages with my comments on them:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=8110900357263230694&postID=8984492783318440319
http://newtestamentchristianchurchdebswtnss.blogspot.com/2010/02/vasectomy-policys-effects.html
Once again, thank you.
Kris
Greg,
Freedom is a wonderful thing. We are free to breathe and free to blog. Free to have opinions and free to withdraw them. Free to differ with others and free to agree. After so many years of being slaves, it is awesome to have this freedom.
Don and Ange
Kris,
Thanks for the links. I just deleted your posts; go back and double check to ensure I got them all; if not let me know.
Consider this...if NTCC really changes, you would not need to delete your previous opposition to them to be welcomed.
Additionally...a real church; a real 'changed' church will not fear the truth; will celebrate the truth.
What you wrote was true, wasn't it?
Gregory
Oh, I almost forgot. Thank you, Greg, for deleting my comments. I will just check like you said to make sure they are gone.
Rev. Shunk,
Sorry to keep bothering you about this, but I counted 16 of my comments on the first link and 20 on the second one. I hope this is not trying on your patience. I would do it myself if I could. I'm so sorry.
Kris
Kris,
I still don't see that I missed any. Did you sign your posts? If not, I cannot find them to delete them.
Gregory
oh, wow! Now when I look they are all gone except for one on the first link. It is signed as 'Kristofer.' Other than that it looks like all of them are gone. Sorry about that. I don't know why I saw them there before. And thank you again for your patience. From now on, I will post with my google account if I post here again, if I am still welcome. This Caesar fellow was talking about me, so I just want to address him, if it's ok.
Sorry, Rev. Shunk, I guess there is only one left on the first link. I tried responding to your message, but I don't know if you received it. There is only one left on the first link I sent you, and it has the name 'Kristofer' attached to it. Sorry for that.
Kris,
No problem, the last one is delted.
Do me one favor though; keep all your latest posts on here so people know why they were deleted by 'the administrator'. I don't want people to think this blog is censored.
Gregory
oh, wow... I didn't think about that. I was planning to remove them... but it will just say that they were removed by the author if I remove them myself. I think I should at least remove some of the entries as they are redundant. I was having trouble sending the comments and I thought one got lost and i re-wrote it twice.
Kris,
You misunderstand, if you remove your latest posts on this thread it will say 'removed by author' but then there will be no record of why all your other ones were removed by 'the administrator'.
So again, please don't remove your latest posts on this thread. I know you can do what you want, and all I can do is ask, but I can also do what I want, and will probably restore all your old posts if you delete your requests for me to delete them.
I don't know what is up, but you are posting the same type of stuff that you just had me delete, and now you are telling me you were going to delete these latest posts also.
Why would you ask if you are welcome here (are you back or not) when you ask me to delete all your old posts, post more of the same type of stuff, and then tell me you were going to delete this new stuff also?
I assumed you were cleaning shop to move on.
I don't know what your game is Kris, but I ain't playin'. Don't waste my time.
Gregory
Actually, Greg, I deleted a bunch of them before you did. They were the ones that were done with my google account. Remember, I was the first one to leave a comment on your blog. That space for the first comment on Deborah's first post on this blog now says, comment deleted. This comment was removed by the author (not administrator).
I will just say, I am trying to not be involved, but I guess it is hard because I believe in the cause (or our cause). I just have personal reasons for wanting to remove the comments. Maybe I should not have asked them to be removed. I don't know. I just want to make sure I am right. That's all. But then I guess I just wanted to respond to Caesar, because I didn't appreciate his comments about me.
Sorry for wasting your time, honestly. I understand your being upset with me. I am truly sorry.
Kris,
That's all well and good. I remember you posted that you deleted posts, but could not delete them all so you involved me.
You are not wasting my time (yet), I just wanted to accommodate you, especially since you made it easy by giving me the links to the pages your posts were on.
I am not upset, I just have a lot less tolerance for inconsistency now that I am post-cult, and asking me to delete your old post, and then posting more of the same on this page, and saying you were going to delete those also, is inconsistent.
Again, I ain't playin'. You delete your requests to me, and all your stuff probably goes back up.
Gregory
Ok... Now I understand... I totally understand what you are saying... You want me to keep the request to delete my comments. No problem whatsoever. I hope you will forgive me.
Deb or Greg,
Love the new thread titles and "Friends and Family" and "Truth Seeker Counter" and "Search This Blog For Light" and other changes to the blog :-) Nice work!
Ds or Gs said,
"He can have good reasons, or no reasons. We are all free now."
Don and Ange said,
Freedom is a wonderful thing and we hope that Kris is able to obtain it as we have. The price for our freedom was not free and has left many scars and bad memories but in spite of all the bad, there is definitely freedom outside of the ntcc.
Kris, if you read this, as we have posted, we think that you wrote some very good and insightful comments that made very good points. Our intentions are not to belittle you in anyway as the ntcc would do. We do however, realize that the enemy is real and it is always difficult to overcome the years of abuse we took as members of the ntcc. I truly believe that the ntcc is an evil and wicked organization that created a hateful environment towards all that were not in submission to them. These are harsh words that are directed toward the very few elite members in leadership positions that have shaped the organization into a cult.
We were all at one time saved in this cult because they preached the Word of God to us. However, its what they did afterward in word and deed according to the doctrines and policies dictated by the leadership that were not God's word and were not out of love or spiritual admonishment that made us cult members to mimic and duplicate the actions that were taught to us.
You said you had your reasons for deleting what you commented and we respect that as your right. People should be free to do what they will on these blogs whether it's considered good or bad, we are free and everyone is afforded the opportunity to present their opinions. Our point is that you were right and should not be ashamed of it or feel bad in anyway for telling the truth. The ntcc doesn't want us to have this freedom and we are tired of their minions, like ceasar salad, dictating to us what is right and wrong.
We left them and they are no longer Captain of this ship. They can rant and rave all they want, but we are free from the cult called ntcc and are not ashamed to proclaim our liberty to all that will hear. If there was no truth to what we say, they would not try to dispute it or to justify their actions.
What we state here on this blog is our educated opinions based on what we consider to be the truth, much of which is backed up by scripture. We welcome all to comment and disagree or agree. We believe that what we write is the truth and we will not be removing anything from our blog.
We truly and sincerely wish you the best and hope you will find peace and freedom from the ntcc. What has helped us to achieve this is to totally reject ntcc as an organization and accept God's love and forgiveness in our lives. We do not however reject the people, most of which blindly follow the teachings of ntcc. We separate the good experiences from the bad. We separate the biblical teachings of the ntcc from the man-made policies of the ntcc and live for God.
Don and Ange
I have heard in NTCC the gospel message alot with some other stuff mixed in there as well. They preach of course that there is no thing as a perfect church and NTCC is as good as it is going to get. Different members have told me that when you here something that is crazy you just have to blow it off, and ignore it. I have done that to much. At NTCC We are fed the word so much that our bellies our full, but the meal was sprinkled with poison.
You might get saved in NTCC but you might start to feel a bit weak because your Word/meal has a little bit of poison sprinkles. I am still greatful for all that God has brought me out of especially that I am OK even after NTCC. My relationship with Christ started before NTCC.
D.D., P.H.D. in what? From where? That's a rare photograph, I actually thought that there were none in existence.
Looks like davis has a case of the "mulligrubs" in that photo of him in your sidebar... It is also a very typical position for him to be in... seen that pose often.
Love this photo of Mom and Pop Gaylord! They would probably be appalled if they could see the ntcc today!
Don and Ange,
Mom & Pop were appalled years before they died. Appalled at the 'machine' Pastor Davis was turning the Servicemen's works into.
Gregory
sometimes you think you have no tears left for the life that we lived while in the cult.
But then Gregs description of Mom and Pop gaylord. tear up on that. They were GENUINE! Did it ALL for the love of lost souls. Not for what they could get out of it. Not for money,postion,lording it over anyone.
Many of us have FOND memories of those two. Being around them. You knew you were loved and it did not feel fake. Or question anything about them.
My fond memory of them was in a servicemen home's.They came for a visit.
April,
I remember Mom Gaylord disagreeing with verna / vicky / victoria / davis (still vd, if you know what I mean).
Mom was telling vicki to quit worrying; the brothers would let her know if they wanted more (snacks during fellowship).
verna adamantly shook her wig bedecked head, no, no, no. "No they won't."
Brother Barden came thru the door and politely asked for a second helping, thus ending the debate:
Mom Gaylord: 1
vd: zip, zero, nada, 0, goose egg...
I was never more proud of my husband asking for second helpings than at that moment in the kitchen of the Lodge.
I watched amazed as Mom Gaylord fearlessly held her ground in trying to get v(erna) d(avis) to do the most basic thing in all Christianity:
REST
BE STILL
KNOW THAT GOD IS GOD
What? A God of second helpings? Perhaps some not on the board in ntcc need to read that we don't have to approach God fearfully like Oliver Twist, "Please, Sir; I'd like some more..."
But maybe the true failure in ntcc stems from this basic failure to REST IN THE LORD.
Their false doctrines and crazy works-based pride saturated religion all stems from a failure to just
LET GOD BE GOD!
Angela
No.
Gregory
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