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| Easy to understand, easy to apply. |
NTCC and “The tithe”.
NTCC is a mandatory tithe 501(c)(3). It is required by NTCC that every preacher say before taking the offering, "All Christians pay tithe, and give offerings" (in amongst anything else they might say during offering time), and many times what is said by the preacher regarding tithe and offerings is quite voluminous. Many times this will bleed over into the rest of the service, sometimes continuing as the topic of discussion during fellowship after the service has ended.
Their official policy is if you don't pay tithe, you are not a Christian. It doesn't much matter what else you may be doing right. Conversely, if you pay tithe, you will be called brother, and it does not much matter what else you may be doing wrong.
NTCC's entire teaching (even at the College level) on this subject is contained in their doctrinal statement, as follows: “We recognize the scriptural duty of all people as well as ministers, to pay tithes unto the Lord. (Heb. 7:8) Tithes should be used for the support of the active ministry and for the propagation of the Gospel and the work of the Lord. It is not to be given to charity or used for other purposes. (Mal. 3:7–11; Heb. 7:2; 1 Cor. 9:7–11; 16:2)"
Let's examine NTCC's proof texts...
Heb 7(8) teaches men receive tithe under the law, not that this is now a requirement, and not that Christians have to pay tithe. Of course, how can you receive something unless it is given? So maybe it is up to the dictates of the individual’s conscience, without any penalty from God for non-compliance (unless they sin against their own convictions)?...
Malachi is Old Testament (but, since they use it, why don't they include other verses from the OT)...
Heb 7(2) teaches Abraham paid tithe (to Jesus?) from the spoils of war, and it is only recorded he paid tithe this one time. It should be assumed Abraham had also paid tithe before and after this time, but an understanding of God's requirements are not derived from assumptions (at least they shouldn't be)...
1 Cor 9(7–11) teaches ministers are to be supported by the 501(c)(3), not that congregants should tithe...
1 Cor 16(2) doesn't teach about tithe. But, since they use this one verse to help support their position on tithe, all the tithe NTCC receives should go to Jerusalem; as verse 3 teaches. (Just not to any widows who are poor – Rev. MC Kekel)...
Above, NTCC says, "Tithes should be used for the support of the active ministry and for the propagation of the Gospel and the work of the Lord."
Where in the Bible does it say tithes are "...for the propagation of the Gospel and the work of the Lord."? or even that tithes are "...not to be given to charity or used for other purposes", and what exactly is the "active ministry" (would someone please define this), and does support of the active ministry Biblically include building programs?...
And where in Heb 7(8) does it say ministers have to pay tithe?...
Since NTCC is not the only 501(c)(3) that teaches mandatory tithe, it appears there is some ecumenical slight-of-hand being foisted onto the back of the Body of Christ.
Gregory the unlearned
40 comments:
Greg,
I think this is one of those subjects that most of us questioned while in, but since tithing as a subject is generally accepted as truth in mainstream protestant churches...we accepted it also. At least that's how it was for me. As I studied it out, I could not "see" what I was taught in NTCC, but just figured I was missing something. Come to find out, I wasn't at all.
I am hoping that by your opening up this "conversation", it will cause those who are both in and out to take a close look at their belief system and what it's actually based on.
Thanks.
It's easy for Anonymous snipers to come and post on your blog that you are Unlearned, but I don't see them offering up anything of value in return. What have they studied and come up with? Or, do they feel they don't need to re-evaluate what they're made to believe in NTCC?
I think they are the ones helping to equate NTCC with God, and if God (NTCC) said it, it's not to be questioned, and anyone who does is unlearned. Stupid people. I take that back. Not stupid, just ignorant.
JM
If it is his wife he is so concerned about being taken care of then why not go down and get a little $30 per month $200,000 life insurance policy? Lets see, $30 x 12 months = $360 per year. If he lives another 20 years that would be a $7,200 PERSONAL interest for his wife's well being. Or here's one for you, why not take care of his pennies and his dollars will take care of themselves. Have we not heard that one before? The direction in the bible about taking care of your own, (in whatever facet), so far outweights OTHERS taking care of you it is rediculous to think the CHURCH is supposed to take care of you.
Why not just man-up and do what you want others to do for you. Stop eating the fast food burger (mentality) and then you'll start getting somewhere financially.
Have a great day!
Johnny Cardenas
------------------------
This man right here is a Hypocrite. He was in WA and the ministry when we first started. And he KNOWS for a fact there are changes going on. Those changes or compromise that Mike wants to deny are happening.
This man is good at kissing up to the "leaders" he did it from day one in WA!
As he Stands behind Mike K. saying this. He is now living in Washington. JUST working a job,lay pastor. Whoopty Do. He is not out in a work,anymore!mmmmmm!
His Kids DID Not play sports and are now playing sports. THAT is a CHANGE. I talked to his wife,Casey. She said,She likes how ntcc is now. Of course she does. She has been given a few more morsels of a REAL LIFE! But lets watch and see if they don't get taken back. Once Grant graduates HS. Then will there be a need anymore. Can hear it now,we tried it. Was taking to much away from the WORK of God. So away with that enjoyable activities!!!
this man was at the basketball,fooseball,volleyball BBQ party at Mike's house. What a Waste of Gods time that was,right! would be what rw davis would say. Who by the way ,was NOT at this Party!
There all pretending to be a MAIN STREAM Church. To bring in more folks that there not going to TRY and push there standards on. So they Can KEEP them and there money flow will not stop. And Mike and Tanya will get there dream of having a MEGA church!!!!
Oh and John,no one EXPECTS the church to take care of them. BUT if someone was in need would ntcc reach out a Helping hand to someone that needed a Hand up OFF the street,or a widow,SINGLE Mother....... Of course not. That would be what they and you consider LAZY . As IF mike Works for his Money!!!
April
What about tithe being paid before the law? Over 430 years before it?
Jesus spoke about paying tithe. He never said it was done away with.
So, you can just not pay tithe and you will end up on the short end of the stick on that day.
Blessed and happy!
Anonymous,
Understood. But my article on tithe only addressed/refuted the verses NTCC uses to support mandatory tithe.
I showed (as many others have) that NTCC's proof texts in their Doctrinal Statement do not support their doctrine of mandatory tithe for Christians.
If NTCC (in this one instance, by NTCC, I mean the senior leadership) has other verses, they need to share them, so the non-tithing part of the Body of Christ can start paying tithe.
Then, they should change the tithe part of their Doctrinal Statement, so it lines up more closely with what the Bible actually states.
Gregory
Jesus also spoke to that one man in Luke 5:14 to, "...go, and show thyself to the priest, and offer for thy for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them," so, (I must ask), are supposed to do that also? We all believe in giving/supporting the church with our time and finances but to teach that paying a tenth of your income as a New Testament commandment is not supported in any of Paul's, (the minister to the Gentiles), writings to the churches. The gift of God cannot be purchased by money and "paying money" to the church certainly is not needed to keep the salvation of God. You give to your local church as the needs arise, give a tenth, give a thirtieth if you want, but Paul clearly, (an elementary kid can see this), talked about GIVING more than once "...as he purposeth in his heart."
If my pastor has a nice house/car, salary, then he is taken care of, if he is lacking put the need out to the congregation, they will be glad to take care of him & his family.
Also there should be a financial disclosure given to the people that give to ensure that there is enough finances for the ministry of the gospel and that the expenditures and salary for the pastor are reasonable, otherwise you might be paying for an air conditioned dog house and not even know it.
I never made the statement "all Christians pay tithe" while taking up the offering. In the first place, even if you believe that tithing is biblical, what about a new believer that never even heard of it? Is he now excluded from "all Christians?"
Tithing is an old testament relic. No matter what kind of scriptural gymnastics are employed, they can never make the bible say what it doesn't. If it were the heaven/hell issue NTCC makes it out to be, tithing would be unequivocally mandated by at least a verse or two in the new testament. Since it isn't, we can conclude that the effort to foist tithing upon Christians is a device by church leaders to insure a regular income for their 'ministries.'
Don't let these parasites deprive you of your lawful property. Give as God has prospered you, according to your own desire and conscience. Don't depend of some outmoded formula only applicable to old testament Jews.
Kekel is doing damage control on his blog. Check it out, he is calling one man "effeminate" and claiming that ntcc doesn't get involved in peoples marriages.
The real problem with Kekel is that he is intelligent enough to know exactly what he is doing and uses his intelligence to continue in his false shepherding (covetousness)
RW Davis had the backbone and the narcissistic ego to start his own false movement, but he was dumber than a bag of hammers, yet a master manipulator, he could never have pulled his antics of today.
Kekel on the other hand has enough Bible knowledge to be truly dangerous to sincere Christians- he knows exactly what he is doing and his whole life is based on covetousness and maintaining his current lifestyle- he has never served God, but has only used God's name to serve himself, which is the underlying motive of many in the ntcc
t
If my pastor has a nice house/car, salary, then he is taken care of, if he is lacking put the need out to the congregation, they will be glad to take care of him & his family.
Prime example of the ntcc brainwashing that goes on.
Put it out to the conregation and it will be taken care of. I have been to two church since leaving ntcc. There private lives's are not discussed with the conregation. They can rely on God to provide there needs. Why would a man stand in front of people asking for money. Since most ntcc minister(almost all) work a FULLTIME job. That is there career. Not the ministry. What has to take the most hours. That day job!!
Rw davis and mike will put the needs out to the conregation. Even if they can pay for it themselve's. But why would they want to take money out of there pocket. Just another BOSS HOGG. keep that money and just look at it. Knowing there rich. But ask more from the very poor ministers in ntcc. Barely scraping by. Ask for another pledge. When they do not need to do that. But lets do it anyways!
Bunch of crooks!!!
April
Anonymous said...
Jesus spoke about paying tithe. He never said it was done away with.
Jeff said...
That is some messed up logic. Jesus never said that taking your rebellious child to have him stoned by the people in the city was done away with either? You can sure find that law in the Old Testament. When is the last time you tried that one? For that matter Jesus spoke about a whole lot concerning the law but never said that vast majority of the law that the NTCC no longer practices was done away with either. Your logic has no substance.
The fact is, the scriptures that NTCC leadership has elected to include in their doctrinal statement to support mandatory tithe paying hardly support such a mandate.
I've also said that if someone wants to pay tithe that is fine. The problem that I have is that the NTCC shouldn't include bogus support scriptures such a 1Cor 16:2 that literally have "NOTHING" to do with paying tithe in an attempt to support such a mandate. Frankly it's insulting. They can duck and dodge and manipulate a few of the other scriptures and fool the unlearned but even the unlearned shouldn't be fooled into believing that 1Cor 16:2 has a single thing to do with tithing.
As Greg and I have both stated, 1Cor 16:2 specifically an unquestionably references taking up a free will offering for the relief of the poor Christians in the church. Plane and simple and that fact cannot be refuted.
So why does the NTCC include that scripture in their doctrinal statement to support the practice mandatory tithing if the practice of mandatory tithing is so easily justified? Things that make you go hmmmmmm.
Jeff
Part 1
Here's some perspective from "behind the fence" which indicates that NTCC brainwashing is no match for personal scholarship (and which also makes us wonder how many others refrain from posting because of fear):
"A few years ago I was leaving my office, having completed my work. I had already turned my computer off. As I started to walk out I felt a distinct impression that I should turn my computer back on and do a search for Rev. R. W. Davis. Since I had done that previously on several occasions I was a little surprised, but I did the search anyway and that day discovered Factnet.
A few weeks later I was at home when I again felt the distinct impression that I should pull my Strong's off the shelf and do a search for "tithe". I was really shocked. I had never understood the argument about paying tithe that had been given us in one of Larry Jone's classes in Bible school. I went over the supposed logic of tying together several Scriptures that apparently "proved" that we as Christians needed to pay tithe. After several unsuccessful attempts to understand what seemed to me to be faulty reasoning I gave it up, as being something that I would understand later - but I never did. Nevertheless I continued to pay tithe with no qualms, and I never doubted that it was commanded that I do so. I also knew that even the Baptists teach tithing.
In the pastorate I really never received any tithe to amount to anything. I'm glad for that now. I supported everything myself. I paid my own bills and all the church's bills for several years. I didn't need anyone's tithe and I counted myself blessed that I could preach the Gospel freely. I still do.
But back to my story: when the Holy Ghost impressed me to do a search for tithe I was shocked because I had never doubted tithes' validity. But I did the search anyway, and found what I knew I would find: there was absolutely NO teaching in the New Testament concerning paying tithe. I also discovered the mistake many had made, in confusing the one-time offering taken up by Paul, with monies to be laid aside ("thesauro" = treasured up) for relief to the Judean Saints after a drought. IIRC the Greek word "titheto" was involved in there somewhere, forgive me I would have to look it up. But the reference was NOT to something that was to be done on a regular basis. [I looked it up, tiTHEto, from Tithaymi, meaning "to lay or set aside". Does NOT mean "tenth", or have anything whatsoever to do with tithing. It was used for the one-time offering only.]
Furthermore according to various sources (Barnes' notes, Jamison, Fausset and Brown, etc) the custom in the primitive Church was for each Saint to attend the once-a-week service, on the first day, and bring any offering that he felt led to contribute. The offering need not be in cash. The offerings were collected and then distributed, first to the true widows, then to the other needy in the congregation, and finally to the Pastor IF there were anything left over. You likely knew that already. [Actually there wasn't a "Pastor" in the primitive Church as we know it, either, there were always several Elders/Bishops/Shepherds who had been previously chosen, with JESUS as the Head of the local congregation (not a man); but that is a topic for a different discussion].
...continued
...Part 2
The "proof" text used by NTCC for many years, i.e. Heb. VII.8: "And here men that die receive tithes ..." is referring to the Jewish priests who, at the time of the writing of that epistle, were still receiving tithes (today Jews do not pay tithes because the Temple is no longer standing, etc). It had nothing to do with tithes being paid to a Christian overseer. And thus far with the other NTCC arguments. Of course none of us is arguing that an individual should not be allowed to GIVE an offering of 10% or 20% or even 100%, as in the case of the widow (Mk. XII.43), so long as it is specifically characterized as being an offering. But there is a HUGE problem in stating that if you pay tithe you really haven't given anything. First of all, that is a lie, and we all know that there are "no liars" in the New Jerusalem. In the worst case, falsely commanding Saints to "pay tithe" amounts to extortion, since it involves obtaining monies by the use of threat, in this case the threat that anyone who doesn't pay "tithe" is close to being judged. Teaching the Saints to pay tithe actually involves therefore a combination of lying, stealing, and extortion. That's a pretty serious offense, and as I stated above this is not limited to NTCC, as the Baptists, Catholics and many other denominations all teach this practice - though none probably so vehemently as NTCC.
Feel free to publish this on the forums. I would love to publish this myself on one of the blogs, but I fear being discovered (via my IP address) by Mike Kekel and being given the "left foot of fellowship".
Jeff you are so right on with that last post!!! "Giving" to your local church is a CHOICE that is made by the people when they receive a financial disclosure of where the congregation's money is being used. Every HONEST church should WILLINGLY give out a financial disclosure. Why wouldn't a financial disclosure be readily available? There should be nothing to hide and where the money goes that comes into a church should be totally open and "shouted upon the housetops." Why? Because if the money is being used appropriately and not on extravagance then there is nothing to be ashamed of, right? Try telling your congregation that, "I used part of the money you-all gave last month so I could go
from a Toyota Corolla to a BMW," and most intelligent hard working people will wonder why did you do that? It's amazing to me that a person could go all the way through a Bible school and not know that 1 Cor. 16:1,2 has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with paying "tithe!!!"
Furthermore it's amazing to me that people can make a outright doctrine out of a word (tithe) that PAUL NEVER USED ONCE in any of his writings and totally pass over the COMMANDMENTS that are CLEARLY in the Bible like faith, the love of God, and the love of your fellow believer whether he attends your specific church or goes to another church. "Wow," talk about "straining at a gnat & swallowing a camel!!!"
Its funny...every time i post a comment on Mike's blog he refuses to publish it...
He is such a spineless coward!
Apparently my relatives cannot discern the difference between a gutless coward and a manly leader!!! oh well
I love the Lord with all my heart, but when i see and hear of guys like this "pistol-whipping" people from behind their coward pulpit, i just want to drag them out from behind there and "lay hands on them" if you know what i mean..
t
I realize this is off topic, so please bear with me.
Just a question for anyone who reads this thread.
When was the last time any of you ever saw a Preacher cast out a devil, or at least attempt to cast out devils from someone demon possessed?
I find it baffling that the Bible states one of the signs of a believer would produce this very event, (Mark 16:17-18) yet in attending fundamental Holiness/Full Gospel Churches, I've never seen this portion of service/ministry accomplished by any preachers...why?
Yet deliverance was clearly about 1/3 of Christ ministry. Holiness Preachers can almost preach the paint off the ceiling, but is the power/anointing of God still available to help those suffering from evil spirits?
Or should those suffering from demonic possession be sent to a psychiatrist?
Sometimes I wonder if this is neglected in the program of God, or even if Christ requires this of his ministers.
Rev Shunk you and your wife probably don't remember me, but I met both of you back in 93 at the Asian Conference in Okinawa. I still attend NTCC.
Thanks for your input.
God is Love
M. Riley
"Or should those suffering from demonic possession be sent to a psychiatrist?"
M Riley, Maybe the NTCC leadership needs to go see a bunch of psychiatrists!
Jesus hates sin but loves the sinner.
M. Riley,
Sorry, we don't remember you.
We successfully cast out demons (through the power of the Holy Ghost) whenever we discerned we came across demon possession. We didn't identify them that often (out fault), and this wasn't the focus of our personal ministry, but God delivered when called upon.
My Dad cast out demons numerous times (through the power of the Holy Ghost) throughout his 50 plus year ministry.
But you are right, this aspect of Christ's ministry is not stressed by NTCC. They do say they believe in miraculous healing. But also stress psychiatrists, and other medical professionals, more than in the past.
I personally know of one instance where a minister was healed by God, and was still made to get an operation by Pastor Davis. The Brother was diagnosed with a life threatening medical problem, then God healed him - the minister told RWD this - but the operation revealed nothing wrong. The operation was unnecessary; God had healed him.
As far as Christ requiring ministers to be able to cast out demons, my view is ministers should be able to provide for the complete spiritual needs of a person.
Deborah
The times that i attended Ntcc, I never saw any encounters with demonic possession. I believe the pastors I was under were well equipped to deal with such an event.
Anonymous,
Agreed. Every Christian has the capacity to be well equipped for such an event.
Deb and I rarely dealt with demon possession during a church service, but mostly during home visits.
Gregory
Soon after leaving ntcc I attended a huge Baptist church in Atlanta. When I walked in they gave me a brochure, and on the back was their full financial statement! How much money came in and how it was all distributed. They brought in 18 million a year! Yet, had no problem talking about it and being totally transparent about the money. I believe that if I had walked up to the pastor and asked him how much he made in a year he would have told me.
Compare this to ntcc where money is a huge mystery. Davis, Kekel, Olson-- No one discusses where the money goes. No receipts- no paper trail. For many many years they took up large offerings at the conference for missionaries-- yet I know of no missionaries receiving money-- or at least receiving very little. So, where does all the money go? How about all the tithe from all the churches, sent to Graham headquarters, plus offerings, plus special offerings, plus more??
Then when you go to Graham, Davis and Kekel are living like millionaires. It's corrupt. Yet, no one wants to accept the reality that Davis and Kekel are pocketing most of it.
It's funny how ntcc tries to use Luke 11:42 to say everyone must pay 1/10th of their income to them. What Jesus was doing in Mt. 23:23 & Lk. 11:42 was CONDEMNING the Pharisees' OUTWARD PIETY. It's the same stuff that went on with the other Pharisee in Lk. 18:12, "I fast twice in the week, I GIVE tithes of all that I possess." Jesus condemned this Pharisee's self righteousness. Isn't it interesting that the publincan, who was humble and said, "God be merciful to me a sinner," went down to his house justified?Jesus was not promoting tithe in Mt. 23:23 & Lk. 11:42. He already knew that the Hebrews tithed to the Levites. What Jesus was doing was "giving a slap in the face" to these Pharisees because of their self righteousness! The EMPHASIS in Mt. 23:23 & Lk. 11:42 and the point that Jesus is trying to get across is that the Pharisees OMITTED the WEIGHTIER matters of the law, these weightier matters of the law were judgment, mercy, and faith! Jesus was not emphasizing everyone giving a tenth, (which was for the Levites, "hello?"), Jesus was REBUKING these scribes and pharisees for being HYPOCRITES who would make clean the outside of the cup...but within they are full of EXTORTION... Extortion means obtaining something by THREATS...this is interesting that Jesus said this a couple of verses down after the other scripture. The very time that Paul could have said something about paying a certain percentage of your income he said 2 Co. 9:7.When Paul went in to start a church he NEVER hounded people for a tenth. II Th. 3:8, "...but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we MIGHT NOT BE CHARGEABLE TO ANY OF YOU." Paul clearly loved those churches from the depths of his heart(even unto tears) and would have ministered unto them whether they paid him or not. That congregation that God entrusted Paul to watch over, (not to be a commanding lord to BUT TO BE AN EXAMPLE TO), was precious in his sight. Those people ARE GOD'S HERITAGE!Paul said in one place (1 Thes. 2:8), "...we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, BECAUSE YE WERE DEAR UNTO US." With some "pastors" the only people that are dear unto them in the flock are those who "pay up." That, my friends, is a hireling and that is why they tell you, "...if the your not paid up then don't call me..." Stop paying up and see how much love and visits you get. Let the money dry up & he will either talk about leaving town or he will eventually show you the door. Jn. 10:13, "The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and CARETH NOT FOR THE SHEEP. That is why they can "think nothing" of thowing you "under the bus" even after you have paid thousands and thousands to their ministry, because they are a hireling. Some "pastors," would not be your pastor or minister to you unless they got a certain amount of money from you. The gift of God cannot be purchased with money and it is not Biblical to "pay" a certain amount of money to keep the gift that God has given us which is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. What they SHOULD START SAYING before they take up their offering is, "And we KNOW that ALL CHRISTIANS love their fellow Believers!!!" What preachers should emphasize is, 1 JOHN 3:14,15, "...He that loveth not his brother abideth in DEATH." "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." You want your sins forgiven by God??? "...forgive us our sins as we forgive those who have sinned against us." sound familiar? It's not about how much money you "pay," THE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE CANNOT BE BOUGHT!!! AND MONEY IS NOT NEEDED TO BE PAID TO KEEP IT!!!
Good article Anonymous.
You said..."It's funny how ntcc tries to use Luke 11:42 to say everyone must pay 1/10th of their income to them."
But, Luk 11:42 (and Mat 23:23) are not in NTCC's doctrinal statement.
Or, are you implying that NTCC's ministers also don't find any support for the doctrine of mandatory tithe in the doctrinal statement so have to try and pile on additional support texts?
It would be great to get a comprehensive list of the myriad verses ministers (from any denomination) use to get their congregations to mandatorily tithe.
Gregory
"When was the last time any of you ever saw a Preacher cast out a devil, or at least attempt to cast out devils from someone demon possessed?"
That would have been in 1980 in Tillicum with Jim Ashmore. Some guy came to service, and while we were singing "In the name of Jesus...demons will have to flee," he crumpled to the floor, trembling. Some brothers brought him up to the altar, and soon there was a very persuasive demonstration of demonic manifestation (of course now I'm so cynical about NTCC that I can't help but wonder if the whole thing was just staged, but it did appear authentic). He was writhing on the floor, his face was unrecognizeably contorted, and he spoke in a strange and guttural voice. After the exorcism, he appeared normal.
The interesting thing about this episode is that once word reached RW, he flatly denied its authenticity, even though he wasn't even there. Apparently he's the only one allowed to be a devil fighter in the org. After that, Ashmore refused to discuss it with anyone. Tapes of the service were ordered destroyed, but I understand that Tom Wright kept one anyway and played it for some brothers in Korea.
NTCC likes to masquerade as an old fashioned Pentecostal church, but they shy away from this element of church work.
Yes Greg Ive heard Lk. 11:42 & Mt. 23:23 used several times through the years. There should always be some sort of "checks & balance" system in a every church along with a financial disclosure. Nobody is going to "buy" their way into heaven, money does not need to be paid for us to keep our salvation.
If people are rich and want to give their pastor $100,000 a year then "go for it" but they are no more saved than the fella that puts a $5 dollar bill in the OFFERING. What is needed for us to keep our salvation is not money but it is for us to continue in the FAITH grounded and settled and be not moved away from the HOPE of the gospel.
James talked all about the church that gives favortism to the rich and despises the poor & "low & behold" if the same exact stuff don't continue to go on today!!!
Anonymous,
Luke 11:42 is Jesus talking to the Pharisees...surely support for mandatory tithe is not anytime the word 'tithe' is mentioned, with no regard for context?
Jesus telling the Pharisees "...not to leave the other undone" is not the same as Jesus telling the Church to tithe.
Matthew 23:23 is the same instance as Luke 11:42.
Neither of these verses is in NTCC's doctrinal statement, so they also believe Luke 11:42 and Matthew 23:23 doesn't support the mandatory tithe doctrine.
Any other verses? So far we are seeing mandatory tithe for the Christian not being taught in the Bible.
Mandatory tithe teaching churches are committing fraud against the body of Christ.
Gregory the unlearned
I believe you are exactly 100% correct on that statement Greg. It would be neat if Michael Kekle would make an attempt to prove "mandatory new testament tithe" on his blog.
New Testament "tithe" is about as scriptural as New Testament "burnt offerings." NTCC takes those scriptures in Lk. & Mt. TOTALLY out of context.
Most churches look at it as "giving" which that is what it really is but the preaching of "mandantory tithe" for the New Testament is not Biblical.
Talking about tithe and monies, you all know that that is not the whole story. If you pastor you pay tithe of everything that comes in.
Tithe of the offerings, tithe of the church, tithe of the tithe of the tithe received and so on and so forth, so where does is stop?
What about the escrow money, you pay tithe on that or what, what about when the pastor leaves that church, where does the escrow money goes? Man! I tell you it is a tangle just to keep it straight.
Maybe you greg can discuss all these things since you were a pastor and surely you had an escrow unless the servicemen's home don't do that. xo
Selling bird houses (lol) NO! that's not gay at all!
How can you be a "non- profit" organization and then "command" people to "pay-up?" & then "tap dance" around all of the scriptures that Paul wrote about "giving" & try to turn it into a "mandatory payment?" Does anyone out there in the ntcc care to contribute a comment?
Looking back in time, I can't find any comments from anyone in ntcc that have any substance at all. Even kekel's damage control blog's don't address any of these issues, at least not with any clear concise scritpural reasoning.
Don
Greg,
As you referenced this post recently on Jeff's blog, I would like to add a comment on it.
Your dissertation on this subject of mandatory tithe is extensive and in depth; truly a thought provoking soul searching exposition on a significant subject that is prominent in the entire church world.
I would have to say I can find no error in your commentary and analysis of the Proof Texts listed except for one:
You wrote:
1 Cor 9(7–11) teaches ministers are to be supported by the 501(c)(3), not that congregants should tithe...
The KJV reads:
1Co 9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
1Co 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
1Co 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
1Co 9:10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
1Co 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
I would submit to you that this portion of scripture teaches that financial support for a Pastor, Spiritual Shepherd, Preacher, Bishop, Elder, or whatever a particular denominational congregation wants to label its Leader, should be provided by the congregation that he is leading. That leader should reap the "carnal things" (i.e. monetary compensation) from those he has converted, led to salvation, convinced to become a member, etc etc.
I do not understand how this scripture can be construed as requiring a minister to be supported by a 501(c)(3) entity.
Will you please expound and/or explain for this reader?
Thanks in advance
Caesar
Greg,
Another comment if I may,
Regarding Heb 7. I would venture to say the primary teaching in this chapter is that Jesus is the Great Eternal High Priest, who is much better and higher than the Old Testament Levitical Priesthood.
This is not the proper area for a complete commentary but in summary, we see:
Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Then all of Ch 7 explaining how Christ is not of the Levitical Priesthood, but rather of the order of Melchisedec, the proof of which is that Abraham, who is the Patriarchal Ancestor of the Levitical Priesthood, and by default Levi himself being a future descendent of Abraham, actually paid Tithe to a Priest named Melchisedec (who we understand to be Christ Himself) before Levi was born.
And in Summary, Paul writes:
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
It is quite imaginative and exaggerative to proclaim and assert that Paul is teaching about the Doctrine of Tithe to the New Testament Church in this portion of Scripture.
Thanks,
Caesar
Caesar,
You wrote, "I would submit to you that this portion of scripture teaches that financial support for a Pastor...should be provided by the congregation that he is leading...That leader should reap the 'carnal things' (i.e. monetary compensation) from those he has converted..."
We are in agreement, it's just in this instance I referred to NTCC as a 501(c)(3), since NTCC is a 501(c)(3); as are most churches.
NTCC is the one who teaches the Ministry is a business, so sometimes I refer to them as such.
Me writing, "1 Cor 9(7–11) teaches ministers are to be supported by the 501(c)(3), not that congregants should tithe." is the same as me writing, "1 Cor 9(7–11) teaches ministers are to be supported by the church, not that congregants should tithe."
Gregory
Greg,
Thanks for that simple yet effective clarification.
It makes much more sense to me now that you re-word it that way.
I would agree with you that the scripture here teaches the minister should be supported by the church he leads.
Caesar
Hello, I found your website while googling to find out service times for the NTCC in my neighborhood. The info on this blog is so odd to me. I have visited this church in STL a few x's and I have been to service on a few dif days and they all seem so sweet to me. The one I went to a lot of the women do wear long skirts and have long hair. But I wear dress pants and so do a lot of other women. Their are members with gold teeth and dreadlocks. EVERYONE has been sweet to my family. My children play with the ministers children. We read along with the pastor in the bible. The pastor preaches well. I like how he relates the messages with our everyday life and even makes it funny sometimes. Mybe this church is one of the exceptions. I have really enjoyed going their. I remember commenting to my husband how their are so many different types of people that go here unlike most churches in STL. This history really shocks me.
Thanks
Mrs. Russell,
Glad you stopped by. I am surprised you found our Blog at all from only a Google search. This Blog won’t normally appear before page 5 of results from most search parameters. Visit and post anytime you like. This Blog is moderated, so anything you post won’t appear right away (I noticed you submitted your comment twice).
Gregory
Greg and Deb,
This is a great topic and glad you put it on your home page. The ntcc has clearly twisted the bible to convince people that tithe, (which was never paid by Gentiles), has all of the sudden become a heaven and hell issue in the New Testament. Tithes were never paid outside of Israel and there is not a NT scripture that suggests that the Gentiles should take this one ordinance of the Old Testament and carry it over to New Testament Christians with a mandate of hell.
I noticed recently that when most ntcc former and current members speak about tithe, they often use the word pay, suggesting that we must pay tithe as a bill or that tithe is owed to God because of Malachi. In most passages of the scripture however, tithe is usually spoken about as a gift. Abraham gave tithes. It was burned into our minds we were to pay our tithe. All Christians "pay" tithe or give in offerings. If you do a bible search using the words "pay tithe" or "Pay tithes" it only comes up one time in the entire bible and that is in Mathew 23:23 where Jesus is rebuking the Pharisees: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." I guess the Pharisees considered their little herb garden spices to be considered the same the agricultural tithe such as corn that was given to sustain the Levites who had no land or Crops. Jesus called out those hypocrites for making a show of 'paying' tithe on their few little spices while they were living large and making merchandise of the people and temple of God.
Not sure it's all that twisted in terms of assisting with the work financially seems to be a common sense idea. To the level they take it is where the question for me lies.
You guys are misleading people telling them not
to pay tithes. You should know better and do know
better. Just because someone didn't treat you right
at one point or another doesn't give you the right not
to pay tithes.
Show me one place in the New Testament which indicates that it's a mandate for tithe be paid during the dispensation of grace? In fact show me one place that even implies such a mandate.
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