No good reason. |
Wahiawa, Hawaii - 1982
RW came to Hawaii for a visit, bringing along a couple other people. Right now I can't remember who accompanied him, but they were on their way to the Philippines. It was during this visit that RW broached the subject of Ministers getting a vasectomy. I believe there were a couple of ministers who recently had this procedure done. RW was teasing one of them about what had happened. While RW was talking, I heard my name mentioned and these words, "Well Deb doesn't want any kids". I later approached Rick and asked him why I was mentioned? When Rick told me about the conversation, and he mentioned "vasectomy" I didn't know what the word meant. Then he explained what the procedure was.
Before Rick and I got married I told him I didn't want children, and if we did.... I wanted to wait for a long time. Later on when RW began preaching against having kids in the ministry, I became more against it. During the time it was being preached there were some ladies who were pregnant (Diana Taylor and Mary Gesang). It was preached at Conferences that certain women were going to be judged and answer to God, for ruining their husband's ministry. The ladies were terrified, living under this condemnation. Other women who become pregnant during the '80's were fearful of telling RW. Instead of this being a joyous time they were crying, and the husbands were upset at what they were going to hear from the Leadership. A pregnant director's wife in the Servicemen's home was a no-no (because you're destroying the work). It was easier to move you around if you didn't have any kids. I felt terrible for my friend (and others) who had to go through this.
During RW's stay the vasectomy issue was brought up a few more times. So the seed had been planted in our minds. RW may say "I didn't make you do it", but the power of suggestion coming from such a man held power. Since we were young and impressionable he could merely suggest something and we'd all comply. He'd say I'd like to have this, and how many husbands would rush out and buy it for him? He himself said he stopped saying he liked this or that, cause he knew the next day someone would buy it for him. Everyone wanted to please him, isn't this what we were taught, to take care of the man of God? I know it will be said "You did this, you take the responsibility for what you did, don't put the blame on Pastor Davis". Yes, I accept the responsibility that we did it, and my response to you is this wouldn't have even happened if RW had not brought up this topic, had not made this policy.
Rick and I had been married for 4 years by this time, and the thought of having a vasectomy had never entered our minds. After the topic was brought up I now had some stupid excuses why it would be great if Rick got the vasectomy, but none were serious enough for him to take that next big step. But, we talked about it and eventually decided to do it, or I should say Rick was the one who went under the knife. Sometime later (I don't remember the year) RW and family came to Hawaii on their way to the Philippines. They left Tanya in our charge, and would pick her up on their return flight to Washington State. At this time we had our hands full with a house full of servicemen, and two young women who were unabashed flirts. Tanya was dating MC Kekel at the time but you'd never know it, the way she acted around the guys.
Rick asked Tanya when Mike was going to get a vasectomy? Tanya's reply was Mike wasn't getting one. When Rick asked why not she replied, "It's different when it's your own kid (RW Davis kid)". This blew Rick's mind (as it should have), and he couldn't believe what he was hearing! He was furious (understandably). He fought this battle till the day he left the Organization. When he told me I also couldn't believe it. What could I say, the damage had been done. I told him well maybe we could adopt when we decide to start a family. We looked into adopting while in the Philippines but it was too costly, and the laws had changed. We had even looked into it while we were visiting in Korea, and their laws had just changed. His vasectomy could not be reversed because of the way the procedure was done to make it more effective.
Every so often RW would make a remark about saving things for his "grandson" in front of Rick. This caused him such terrible anguish that he'd cry. It got to the point that Rick would step out of the room whenever the conversation about having a grandson would come up.
The Straw that broke the camel's back:
The news about Tanya's pregnancy caused a wave of baby fever throughout the Organization. Many ladies followed suit and became pregnant. All of a sudden it was okay, there was no preaching against women having babies. But to those in Servicemen's work it was still not looked upon favorably. To those who had gotten snipped it was no longer an option. If the Servicemen's Director's wife became pregnant she was considered damage goods, now she couldn't do her work, and now there was a child to pay attention to. How could you destroy the work! Childless couples could easily be moved, but a couple with kids was better off in a civilian church. In the early years they had no choice but to use Servicemen's Directors with children. As the bible school grew now they could take them out and replace them.
While in Okinawa, we received a card from Tanya. When Rick opened the card and read it he came undone! It was Grant's birth announcement! I arrived home from grocery shopping to find him weeping in our bedroom. I thought someone in his family died, I was shook up. He handed me the card and said "How could they do this knowing how I feel about it!?" He said "Am I just supposed to overlook this and be happy for them!?" I tried my best to console him, but to no avail. He was the only one who could work through his conflicting emotions. I told him to talk to Pastor, tell him just how you feel, and he can help you through this. Am I right wives? Isn't this what you would have told your husband? But, Rick wasn't keen to the idea; he said it won't do any good. I thought surely the man of God (RW) will have compassion and give him words of comfort. I was at my wits end because I didn't know how to help him, except by praying for him.
Well, the opportunity came, when RW and some ministers came for an Asian Conference in Okinawa. It was after Conference was over and they'd be leaving on Monday. I told Rick let's talk to Pastor about this, since he's here; he'll understand, and he can help you through this.....BOY WAS I EVER WRONG! Our confidence in RW was shattered that day. A lamb was wounded, literally crying out for help, and he further harmed it by his words.
When Rick told him why we were there and that he was having a problem about the vasectomy issue, RW's reaction was so quick, so aggressive, that it stunned us. He raised his voice and said "I didn't make you do it; Deb said she didn't want kids, you and her made that decision!" I guess our reaction to his outburst showed on our faces, because RW caught himself and lowered the tone of his voice. Rick didn't go any further, and covered up his emotions by changing the subject. But I knew this was the end of the relationship between them. RW was like a father to him, he'd been a mentor to Rick since Rick was 12, and Rick was in his 30's by this time. Instead of getting help all he got was a loud, boisterous, condescending voice aggressively coming at him.
When we got home Rick said to me "I told you so! (as he should have)" If you can't go to your Pastor, who is the caretaker of your soul, then who else can you turn to? Wouldn't it have been easier for RW to say "I'm sorry this has caused you so much pain; let me help you through this". Why didn't RW own up to his mistake, or was this a trial-run of how to get people to do what you want? Over the years I have seen patterns in RW’s conduct that have negatively affected people's lives. Whatever RW is doing always has a domino effect. Rick started introducing the vasectomy subject to others. I was furious, and told him why are you mentioning this? It will cause too many problems, just leave it alone. As the years passed Rick became more bitter and wanted nothing to do with Graham, Washington. He hung out with them only when he had to. But his heart was not there anymore.
The Rule was no children under the age of 16 could stay on the Campground:
There was also another rule for smaller children, they could not attend the services because of the lakes (they didn't want any small kids drowning). After Tanya had Grant he could not stay on the Camp, so they stayed up the road at "Hannah's Pig Farm". Many people went up there to see the baby, including myself. I was asked if I had gone yet, and I said I would, so as not to be conspicuous. I was hesitant about going, because of what happened to Rick. It was mentioned at the “Lodge”, to the folks staying there, not to talk about Grant in front of Rick. After Rick left the Organization the rules changed. All of a sudden it was okay for Grant (still underage) to stay on the Campground. Yet, this rule was still in effect for everyone else’s family (no children under 16 allowed to stay on the Campground).
I told you various people get special privileges, when it's family the rules change for them. RW often said he made the rules and he can change them. It's so sad that so many times it caused battles for people. But their answer to people having battles over certain issues is "They that love the law of the Lord nothing shall offend them" or “If you don't like it there's the door.”
Deborah
221 comments:
1 – 200 of 221 Newer› Newest»Since the leaving of the mears, there was a philipino lady and american husband taking care of the campground. The last I heard was that she had become pregmant.
How come she is allowed to be "in" the campground with a baby?
I guess when you are the king of the org, you can make and break the rules.
I don't know what to think of your posts. They make me mad and it is so much info that I just have to take it one day at a time.
Hopefully your relationship with your sister will one day improve.
I hope. She has always been so level headed and I don't think that she is going to reject you for long, at least that is what I am praying for.
Thank you for sharing this painful and difficult story! So many in ntcc have suffered through the same exact tragedy of not being "allowed" to have children, only to have davis and kekel throw this stupid policy back in their face and blame them...
And it is still going on. Look at what happened to the Devonshires. It was so shameful what rdub did to them, parading a married man around as if he were a slave on an auction block all because his wife wanted a baby. Sick.
And accoridng to the old information on the ntcc website this family is now laboring overseas. I'm sure r.w. davis did that to punish them for having a baby and make it impossible for their families / grandparents to see their own grandchild.
But you can be sure verna's umbilical cord is two generations long and wrapped tighter than an eight-day clock. verna is such a greedy grandma she confided in me that she was upset when the kekel's moved into their mountain view estate. Yes. verna was upset that they lived 5 minutes down the road and off the B.S. compound! Twisted and selfish.
I had prayed for tanya and mike to have that baby and that mountain view home so grant would not have to live in a fish bowl as he grew up; but could have some privacy and normalcy in his childhood.
If you read Jeff's blog, you know how they rewarded me.
Well, as I said, no good deed done in ntcc goes unpunished....
David, before he became king, served and loved Saul. As a reward he was hunted like a dog.
And what David, I believe, had no impact on when or why God judged Saul.
David recognized this and submitted to God, praying,
MY TIMES ARE IN YOUR HANDS
Ultimately we will all answer to God. So what happens is truly in His hands....
Your writing is so gentle. That amazes me when I consider the depth of betrayal suffered by you and your family.
May God Bless You and keep you in His peace.
Angela
Why didn't RW own up to his mistake, or was this a trial-run of how to get people to do what you want?--Deborah
Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them. Their skills are used to exploit, abuse and exert power. Since the follower cannot believe their leader would callously hurt them, they rationalize the behavior as necessary for their (or the group's) own "good" and deny the abuse. When devotees become aware of the exploitation it feels like a "spiritual rape" to them.--From the "Profile of a Sociopath" linked article on this blog's homepage.
Angela
During the time it was being preached there were some ladies who were pregnant (Diana Taylor and Mary Gesang). It was preached at Conferences that certain women were going to be judged and answer to God, for ruining their husband's ministry. The ladies were terrified, living under this condemnation. Other women who become pregnant during the '80's were fearful of telling RW. Instead of this being a joyous time they were crying, and the husbands were upset at what they were going to hear from the Leadership.--Deborah
Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion, it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.
Incapacity for Love
While they talk about "God's love" they are unable to give or receive it. Since they do not believe in the genuineness of their followers' love, they are very harsh in testing it from their devotees and expect them to feel guilt for their failings. Expects unconditional surrender. --from "Profile of a Sociopath" linked article on this blog's homepage.
Ange says,
Now I may not have done a good job linking r.w. davis's actions to the profile bullet comments, but be sure, everything r.w. davis does and kekel too can be explained in that brief profile of a sociopath article.
In my opinion davis and kekel are both sociopaths and psychopaths. Read the article and insert their names and see what the Holy Ghost brings to your mind about them and their behaviour.
I DARE YOU!
(Unless your cult leader or sociopathic father won't let you.)
Angela
The "Profile of a Sociopath" article is very good for describing exactly how r.w. davis and kekel and ashmore and gandy behave.
Now if we could find an article describing obsequious sycophants to describe the behaviours of olson, johnson, kinson, gesang, difrancesco, etc...
There is some blurring of these roles as the sycophants try to obsequiously mimic the sociopaths, but you get the idea.
Yay! I didn't know the Mears left.
I hope that means they left ntcc.
It comes to my mind, that just as rdub needed us to win people into his corrupt religious scam, God may use us to lead people out of r.w. davis's corrupt religious scam.
Hmmmnn.
Big Smile.
LOVE YOU JESUS!
Angela
Deborah,
I wept when I read this article. This "policy" has effected generations.
I was blessed to be able to have children, even though I was ill-treated at the time. Every now and again you would hear some rude remark in church if the kids made too much noise. Keep in mind, them breathing is almost too much noise! Sometimes out of nowhere some one would remark "I am so glad I don't have kids". I would look at them strangely and tell them the Bible says children are a blessing.
Plain and simple, children effect the bottom line. Sickening!
(Unless your cult leader or sociopathic father won't let you.)Angela
anonYmus says, sounds like Angela is "shootin' fish in a barrel" :-<
I always hated that expression. Or was it just the impudent look on davis's face as he said it that I hated? Very impudent.
"Since the leaving of the mears..."
Did they leave the org, or just the campground?
Deb, thanks for broaching this topic. I was in BS during this era, and lots of us got vasectomies. It was the thing to do if you loved God and wanted to have an effective ministry. Fortunately for us, we had a little 'accident' before I could make it to the urologist, so thanks to the providence of God, my DNA lives on. I wish I had a dozen kids now, but at least I've been spared barrenness. My son and I are best friends, and I can't imagine how much emptier my life would be if things had worked out according to RW's plan. It really sucks for those like Rick. I believe I heard that George Jordan and DiFrancesco got reversals after Grant's birth in order to be able impregnate their wives.
After we left NTCC, I went and got a reversal myself. Even though we were past childbearing age, it was important to me to undo everything associated with the org and its twisted values. It was worth every penny of the $2,800 I paid.
Well, at least it wasn't Heaven's Gate--there are no reversals for castration (or suicide).
I am so sorry you and your ex-husband had to go through that! As I read the thread that was posted, I wanted to comment, but really did not know what to say. You have so much history and time with NTCC that most of us, can only sit back, and shake our heads as you type away with truth after truth.
I had read this thread shortly after getting home, and like most long days I take a short 15-20 minute nap to rid myself of the days fatigue, and the first thing that came to mind as I opened my eyes, was the mentioning of Gesang, and Taylor and the thought came to mind.....I wonder how many of the long time people that are in NTCC are really glad that you are posting your biography of your life in NTCC.
How many of them would really like to leave, have thought of leaving,or would love to have the guts to do what you are doing, but they have dug themselves in way to deep? Knowing they would lose it all, it's easier to stay and play the game then it is to have to start over so late in life.(Which by the way I would rather be a free man, then a slave to RWD)
I truly believe that their are long time individuals that are smiling to RWD face , and cheering you on, on the inside! If this happened to you, how many more have a similiar story to tell?
With that being said, I have to get on the road, but would like to leave on this note. I remember fellowshipping with the Ashmores one night on the Bonco. They lived in the house directly behing the first mobile home there on 131st in Graham. I remember distinctly, as we were talking Jim and I that he made this statement.... He said had it not been for Mom and Pop Gaylord that he would have never stayed with NTCC.(YES! that is what the man said, there was absolutely no mention of RWD) He said that he came out to a church service, and there was some weird guy up there preaching, and it scared him half to death, but because Pop was such a kind man, that he was eventually won into the service mens home. Imagine that!
Anyway, Debbie you have so much to tell, and the people in and out of NTCC need to hear what you have to say, I really believe there are a lot more people on your side, then what you think, so please do not become discouraged! Good night!
As always..........
In His Service;
Former Graham Lay Pastor
Thank you Deb, it feels like you have set an A-Bomb here with this. Consider these sign of mental abuse:
TACTIC: Controlled Approval-
Maintaining vulnerability and confusion by alternately rewarding and punishing similar actions.
TACTIC - Metacommunication
Implanting subliminal messages by stressing certain key words or phrases in long, confusing lectures.
TACTIC: Dis-inhibition
Encouraging child-like obedience by orchestrating child-like behaviour.
In other words, leading people indirectly and then not accepting blame.
They can speak 2 opposing things at once- at times children are bad, get a vasectomy; other times its good! Can you see how this teeter-tottering is like playing with people's minds to prove loyalty to death.
This new thread blows the lid off their entire false premise- total control and elimination of SELF. But God needs SELF to not be exterminated to really use you. After RW dies - there will be a tumult. As Solomon's sons destroyed the kingdom- it reall went back to the cause: Solomon made errors!
This is one very sad testimony. I know of two current NTCC pastors who have determined (against their wives wishes) not to have children. Oberhauser is one of them and he becomes so satirical and sarcastic when the subject is even brought up. His wife has expressed the desire to have children but just like so many others, Oberhauser has been thoroughly brainwashed by RWD. The Hunts are the other couple.
Now here is the ironic part of that equation. That is two couples who were both in Columbus Georgia, and the same mindset exists with both of them. We are in Columbus so of course we happen to know both couples because we were in their church. That is two for two so how many other couples throughout the organization share the same mindset having no doubt been influenced by RWD? I'm sure many. It is absolutely mindbogglingly that one man, (namely RWD) has been so successful at controlling so many couples lives many of which can no longer even stand the RWD.
RWD obviously never believed the garbage that he spewed out concerning childbearing. He never though it was God's will because if he did, he would have influenced Mike and Tanya to avoid having a child as well. The same with watching videos, which Grant was allowed to do. The same with playing sports, which Grant was allowed to do. The same with listening to worldly music which Kekel has admittedly done when he went to that blue grass festival and wrote about it on his own blog with RWD no doubt having knowledge of it.
Can't everyone see that RWD is no more than a big fake? He doesn't care about any of that stuff because he has allowed Tanya and Mike to do it all. He absolutely could have required that Mike step down plain and simple but he didn't which means that his obvious goal all along was to simply control the lives of everyone else in such a way so as to further the propagation of his business; NTCC INC. There can be no other logical explanation.
Not having kids meant that you could dedicate all your time and money to "HIS" business. I'm not being dramatic because RWD has called the NTCC a "BUSINESS" all along and I've heard it with my own ears. Not participating in the activities that Mike and Tanya have all along meant that you could dedicate all you time and money toward "HIS" business. Kids cost a lot of money, make no mistake about it. They require attention that he wanted directed toward "HIS" business. Playing basketball and football like Grant has done requires that time and money be dedicated; which he didn't want dedicated to any of that stuff but "HIS" business.
It wasn't about holiness and it wasn't about God because if it was, Mike would have gotten snipped and even when he didn't Grant wouldn't have played sports and gone to a $20,000 a years school. It was about control of everyone else but his own family which means that it was NEVER about holiness or God because according to RWD himself, God is supposed to come before everyone to include your own family.
RWD is the biggest hypocrite that I know and he has caused destruction in the lives of so many people but he has done the total opposite with his own family and the prove was written by Deb when she started this thread. The double standard is outright disgusting and Rick cried many a tear while Mike and Tanya rejoiced over the news of the coming of RWDs grandson who would forever change the face of the NTCC.
Get you some of that!!!! Leave the NTCC and be free and if God has called you, then start your "OWN" church and escape the controversy and hypocrisy that will forever surround the NTCC. My family is out of that mess.
Jeff
I came into ntcc quite sometime after the vacectonmy policy had been brushed under the rug. I heard rumors about it. But thought that is so wild it can't be true. Deb,you have truly opened my eyes up to even more filth and evilness that has gone on throughout ntcc history.
Many folks still stuck in ntcc will not come on these blogs. Saying that it is just bitterness,angry people. That just want the world and not God. What they really are is afraid. That they will read the truth about ntcc and what a cult it really is. Then what can they do? They have to leave ntcc. That is what makes them really afraid!
I had a child while in BS. The rule then was you had to wait for that first year of the childs life to come and go. Then you could start BS. One rule I did not mind being in place. I was in NO rush to start BS!
Folks do give you DIRTY looks at conference's. I would pack lots for my child to do during the FIve hours we would be sitting there. And I would get upset if I had to take her to the bathroom. Something I am terribly ashamed of. If my DD made a peep,was unhappy to be sitting there and was sooo bored. I would look around and there was NO UNDERSTANDING smiles. NO offers of help.
Since leaving ntcc. I had to Chill out on thinking my children have to be PEFECT sitting in a Church service. I had some REAL Christians say to me. They are KIDS,Kids will be kids!! I sat in amazement. That they were not annoyed my children were just being kids!
I know pay that forward to moms. In grocery store's,church,any public avenue.
CM
ntcc is unable to show EMPATHY towards there servants. While we are stuck in ntcc. We are there servants!
Why so many of us live in poverty. And do not call up and tell the so called leaders. We know we will not get any support,or help! Go and pray to God about it. Is there Favorite saying. They don't really meant it. It is there escape clause.
But after you leave and accuse them of ignoring you,no help,no support. They automatically push ANY Blame off them. And onto us,there servants. We only do what is commanded of us. Since the local Churches are ntcc churches. The Blame is ALL on them!
CM
Anonymous said...”Since the leaving of the Mears, there was a Filipina lady and American husband taking care of the campground. The last I heard was that she had become pregnant. How come she is allowed to be "in" the campground with a baby?”
The reason the Filipina is allowed to have a child there is because the rules changed. Fences were built around the lakes to drown proof them (once Rick had left). Once that area was protected the children were allowed to attend the services. But there still is an age requirement for the smaller ones, who can be distracting in the service.
Deborah Shunk (aka Sis Blumenthal)
Anonymous said...”Deborah, I wept when I read this article. This "policy" has effected generations.”
Yes, that is the saddest part of all. I can't count how many times new families asked us if we had kids. I felt it was important to them, especially for military families and even in civilian churches. But that was not the goal; it was to get the single service people in. Anyway, regardless of the policy we accepted everyone and were liked by most people.
This will really blow your mind! After all the years I gave to the ministry, while attending an Asian Conference on the island of Mindanao (this is the place where Becky and John are laboring now, and where Rick and I labored before), while sitting in the living room with RW, plus other visiting ministers and their wives...RW asked me "When I was going to have a baby!?” I couldn't believe what I was hearing! I said "Are you serious?" I sat quietly, and then poured out my fears to RW. I said I was afraid to have a baby, because I felt I would be too strict and not loving enough. This was one of the main reasons why I was afraid to have children. During my childhood years I thought my parents were too harsh on my brother. Of course, my brother was Joe Rock head; he was always getting in trouble, and got spanked all the time. I felt I would be like my Mom, and be too strict. Thank God, with help I was able to sort out my thinking. I did finally come to realize I would be a super Mom if I had the chance. But I’m sad to say, my time has passed. Can you see me running after a 2 year old at the age of 52? Oh, BTW my brother is a super guy, has kids, and he loves people just like my Dad did. He's a preacher, and will be continuing the work that my Dad left. He is moving to Idaho shortly.
Deborah Shunk (aka Sis Blumenthal)
Vic said…”I believe I heard that George Jordan and DiFrancesco got reversals after Grant's birth in order to be able impregnate their wives.”
Yes, that's true. Kathy wanted kids so bad, I felt bad for her. I was totally shocked when I heard she was pregnant. At first George wasn't too thrilled, but you can see the change in him and how he dotes on those girls. I am really happy for them.
Deborah Shunk (aka Sis Blumenthal)
I can remember when Tanya got preg. I seem to remember that even for years after that getting fixed was still encouraged. Or it was talked about waiting until you had the finances to afford a child. (and who could afford one in NTCC?)
We all (for the most part) jumped when Rev. Davis said anything. He mentioned in class that only cowboys wore boots and certainly not preacher's wives. 99% of us threw away our dress boots. It was the same way with staight hair. He hated it and his wife would come talk to us if we didn't curl it. It was as if we were small children and couldn't think for ourselves.
Now days when people are wanting to leave they tell you that you can keep your card and still be a minister in their org. Or course, they want your tithe money to keep coming in. Which only a robot would do and believe me I know some of those. I don't trust these people as far as I could throw them. It's all about the money and control.
I know of lots of people who did ask themselves, what does God think about this or that. It was what would pastor or Rev. Kekel, etc. so if I did this or that. Now I am asking myself what does God want me to do. I have a much closer walk with the Lord now. It has helped our family also. Before it was constant fighting and now mostly peaceful. Thank God!
Never Harm
Jeff, another killer comment!
I knew this subject was not an isolated incident. we (along with several other couples and single servicenmen were in Germany when the same thing was preached by a pastor named whittaker. According to him, everyone at this particular church was called to preach or at least, called to go to Bible school. and with that came the anti-child preaching. and the "get a vasectomy if you are serious about going into the ministry" preaching. Gladly, most of us did not heed that teaching and all the couples there became parents, much to his annoyance. He ran that church strickly and harshly. Everyone kept telling me that it wasn't supposed to be like that in a servicemans home. but in the back of my mind I would wonder,"well, where did he get those ideas from then?". It was stressful and ugly being at that church at the time.
It's awful that your ex had to go through those things and still be suffering the repercussions.
Thanks for letting me share this small part of my time in ntcc.
anon3
PROTECT ntcc's MONEY, WHO CARES ABOUT THE KIDS
Since the leaving of the mears, there was a philipino lady and american husband taking care of the campground. The last I heard was that she had become pregmant.
How come she is allowed to be "in" the campground with a baby? --Anon
ntcc knows their own caretaker would never win a lawsuit against ntcc if the caretaker's child drowned in one of ntcc's lakes.
The Mears, Bradeens, johnsons, and olsons all had kids on the campground during conferences or during times when they were there to work on building the camp or as caretakers.
With ntcc money is thier god. So the policy was to protect ntcc's money from a lawsuit.
The fences went up NOT to protect kids from the lakes at the camp.
The fences at the camp went up to protect ntcc from insurance rates rising when the adjuster came out to inspect the camp. Period.
And BTW, the back sides of both lakes had no fencing. Only 3/4 of the lakes were fenced because the ntcc waited until the last minute and had to do a rush job before the insurance adjuster got there.
Folks, I'm not making this up. I was there. My husband worked on the building crew for rw davis and helped build those fences.
money, not safety for kids, was the bottom line.
That's why it was always ok for the caretakers kids to live at the camp.--Their parents wouldn't dare sue ntcc should the tragic happen. But I bet they weren't 'ALLOWED' to have any friends come over to play...
It's all about the money, not the kids.
Angela
Women were in tears because the did become pregnant.
What that reminds me of is China!
There one child policy. and it better be a boy,or the girls were killed.
I am not sure if any women in ntcc had abortions that they told No One about! If so,they killed that child. The man having the Vasectomy is stopping a child from being born. under different atmosphere. That man may have helped concieve a child. And bring forth life. Instead he felt pressured and had a vasectomy. Therefore,could not have any children.
God told Noah to go forth and multiply the earth. What does rw davis do. He stops people from having children. And not allowing them to concieve Gods creation! Having a child should be a joyous time. To celebrate that you know have a living,breathing little person inside you. You,along with God are going to bring a baby into this world.
Instead these women were crying. Men were mad and ashamed that they would no hinder Gods work. rw's words!
I am sure God was not happy with ANY of the Vasectomies that were against people's will!
Just another knotch to add to rw and his cohorts belt. They will be JUDGED for there actions and there WORDS. Just because you did not come out and say,brother so and so. Go and get a vasectomy. Does not mean there hands are clean. No there hands have ALOT OF BLOOD on there hands!
All that they have done and said to ruin people's lives. It is just so sad to think of what they did and still doing!!
CM
edDeborah,
i believe that god will continue to bless you and your husband. He has given you a second chance to make things right with your family.even though your father has passed, this will give you time to get to know your brother all over again and you will find out that he is a superb man of god, husband and father. I believe he will continue on your fathers legacy, with your help and the help of your mother. I hope that your sister will soon realize what she has been missing all these years, because after all, we reap what we sow.
God Bless!
Your story is so sad. I almost cried for what your husband felt pressured to give up. I had extreme difficulty carrying a pregnancy to term, I could not imagine having the choice to try taken away from me. How hard for you to have to see your husband torn to pieces because he was pressured to become sterile. It just makes me so mad!!!
Unfortunately, I know that this is not isolated. Someone I know (that I have promised not to name) got permanently and irreversably sterilized because they were told that children were a hinderance, and so early in their 20's got this procedure. What a young age to cut off the ability to have children. Another person who was interested in marrying me told me that he did NOT want to have children, that he would have a vasectomy to keep from having them - that was a deal breaker for me. Now I have 2, and my husband was talking about having a vasectomy. I am against it, because while I am not looking forward to having any more kids at the moment (my last pregnancy/delivery still have me shell-shocked) I cannot say with absolute certainty that I will never in the future want another child. But I didn't say anything, and left it up to God, and prayed that he would change my husband's mind. Sure enough, the other day, he mentioned that he wanted two more. I jokingly asked him which body part he'd like kicked first, but was thankful God had changed his mind.
I don't know if we'll have any more kids or not, but I'm thankful for the choice to do so. God told us in the Bible that children were a blessing he gave us. Anyone who says they are a hinderance should be shot... and I only half kid. You don't make that choice for someone else, not even by suggestion.
Jennifer,
What a lovely comment. (Right up to the part about shooting someone, oops.)
Uhm, I bet your husband is REALLY GLAD that other fella wanted a vasectomy. LOL!
And how wonderful that you want more children--a great sign that things are good for you.
I prayed for Rick that God would reverse r.w.'s stupid edict.
Afterall, with God all things are possible.
That would not undo the pain Rick and Miss Deborah have already suffered, nor would they at this time have the joy of a mutual baby, but some blessing is better than none.
I don't know why love is so blind. But I know that love is why we stayed in ntcc when our common sense was telling us "THIS IS SO WRONG".
Ah, well. I won't repent for loving ntcc. But my relationship with ntcc now is different. ntcc has completely destroyed and lost my respect.
I now see them as harmful to souls. That puts them on the wrong side of the gospel as enemies of the cross.
So sad.
Angela
"We have some in NTCC who regularly keep company with railers and revilers on their blogs, facebooks, forums and websites, places where evil and railing appears continually."
Anybody with half a brain would know there is a cause and effect for everything. Why are people "railing"? Why are people "reveiling"
Reminds me of the Toyota recall. We don't know why people are crashing? Maybe its their driving habits!
Oh wait...we did a little something wrong! Its the floor mats. Hey you are still crashing, maybe its the gas pedal!
Braodbrushing, never getting to the root of the problem, and dodging questions!
IT'S DIFFERENT WHEN IT'S YOUR FAMILY--
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
From mikey kekel's blog.
It's funny that the devil always shoots himself in the foot when he shoots off his mouth.
The blogs are working.
And mikey is scared.
So he is trying to scare people from coming here to read the Truth.
Oh, well.
Guess we ain't buying your lies any more, mikey.
Angela
P.S. The person who wrote the question about kekel and his going to Applebees really hit a nerve.
So now it's o.k. on Tuesday afternoon.
When grant wants to take his girlfriend there on a date it will be o.k. for grant to go on a Friday night, so long as no ntccer or exntccer sees them.
I mean, really, that's how it's always worked with kekel, davis, and his, because
IT'S DIFFERENT WHEN IT'S YOUR FAMILY
POT--KETTLE--BLACK....OH, BROTHER WHAT A JOKE kekel is
I mean, really, kekel calling someone else a railer?
kekel calling someone else a reviler?
Now that is
THE POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK
I notice he steered clear of the extortioner part of that verse; guess the conviction for his sin was too much for him.
And hey, let's lob this stupid topic out there to take people's focus off r.w. davis selfish, manipulative, only for other people's families policy to tell fellas to get vasectomies so davis could selfishly manipulate couples more easily than having to deal with full families.
BTDT.
r.w. davis did for years teach others to get vascetomies.
r.w. davis did cause others to be childless.
kekels did get special treatment because tanya is davis's daughter and mikey is r.w. davis's son-in-law.
Angela
Mike also wrote on his blog:
"So the bible tells us to avoid people who bellow, and jest, and revile and rail upon others in an angry, insulting manner persistently"
You can take that as a command from God to avoid typical NTCC preachers and churches, where angry and insulting bellowing, jesting, reviling, and railing issue quite persistently--from behind the pulpit.
LTravis said...
mck said...
revile |riˈvīl| verb (I Cor. 6:10)
“criticize in an abusive or angrily insulting manner.”
"So the bible tells us to avoid people who bellow, and jest, and revile and rail upon others in an angry, insulting manner persistently, even if it is in protest."
LTravis said…
Well spoken and that's EXACTLY why I do not attend the ntcc PERIOD.
We have some in NTCC who regularly keep company with railers and revilers on their blogs, facebooks, forums and websites, places where evil and railing appears continually.
The reason that Mike posts in this matter is simply damage control. Before the internet, and the ongoing communication between people that have left NTCC, when someone would leave it was easy for NTCC to totally revile, and dis-credit them in front of everyone, because that individual did not have a voice. It was simply Davis's word against there's, and when all you hear is one side of the story you tend to be bias in what you believe.
But now that the internet is here, and people have a mode of communication THAT CANNOT BE STOPPED! All of the fears, and doubts, and speculations, are brought to light because people are able to communicate and see that they are not the only ones that feel that way, have seen harm done to others, and are now able to see that other people feel the same way.
FACTNET, Tracy's Blog, Jeff's Blog, and now Deborah's blog, have committed no type of lie whatsoever! They have simply pulled back the curtains and have revealed NTCC for what they truly are.... they have simply just shared their negative experiences, and people that are still in NTCC are reading it, and beginning to realize that they are not alone. That someone else, has witnessed the abuse, that someone else, feels that it is a cult, that someone else thinks this, or that is not right. And NTCC hates this! They want to do everything they can to try and shut us up!
But the problem is, people are going to continue to read, and see that they are not the only ones that think like this. Mike can post all the anti-damage blogs he wants, Davis can bellow and scowl all he wants, he can have Rev. Ashmore preach every revival possible, but it will never do away with the fact that people have witnessed it themselves, and then they read that someone else has seen it, then they begin to realize how bad NTCC really is.
People in NTCC aren't stupid, just scared! Scared to leave! The only way NTCC will ever move ahead is to repent of the evil they have done to people today! The convert that they win tomorrow who has never seen the abuse will truly be able to say that they never witnessed it. But as far as those that post on here, such as Deborah, and the people in NTCC that have seen it also, their is no amount of damage control possible that can do away with what people have experienced. Mike you are going to have to simply clear the slate, do right, and then you will be able to say you are not guilty of any of the accusations made against you. But for the record there are to many people that have seen to much!
Former Lay Pastor
Former Graham Lay Pastor wrote...
The reason that Mike posts in this matter is simply damage control. Before the internet, and the ongoing communication between people that have left NTCC, when someone would leave it was easy for NTCC to totally revile, and dis-credit them in front of everyone, because that individual did not have a voice. It was simply Davis's word against there's, and when all you hear is one side of the story you tend to be bias in what you believe.
But now that the internet is here, and people have a mode of communication THAT CANNOT BE STOPPED!
Jeff said...
There is no way anyone could have said it better which is why I will stop right here having done no more than re-post Former Lay Pastor's message.
Jeff
"It easy for people to be cruel when they can hide, so now you'll have to step into the light to post here."
It easy for people to be cruel when they are behind a pulpit too!
Anon!
I too was a victim of Davis' anti-children campaign (which I'm sure he has denied- as usual). I was in ntcc for a long time. The atmosphere in ntcc was anti-children, and there was a time around this "vasectomy" era that it got pretty intense. When my wife got pregnant, I was scared to death to tell Davis. I knew how he was and didn't want to be yelled at and humiliated. (It's mind-blowing in hindsight that we believed Davis was a man of God, yet also knew he would humiliate you in front of the church and emotionally abuse you!) Anyway, after 3 months we couldn't hide it any longer. I don't recall the fallout, but I do recall the intense stress and fear me and my wife felt at the time. Eventually, I got a vasectomy-- entirely due to the pressures put on us by the ntcc leaders.
You people still in ntcc need to understand that Davis, Kekel, Olson and all the others are MASTERS of psychological manipulation. They use cult tactics and abusive church tactics to get their way. They use peer pressure and group humiliation to force you to choose whatever pet peeve they decide that they want that month. And then they have the audacity to say they are God's men and doing Jesus' will. What a farce! And if confronted about it later-- they just lie and say, "We NEVER said that?" Hypocrites and devils.
AXP
Deb & Greg,
Thank you so much for posting your story! I believed the 'discrediting' of those who left, because I didn't know any better. Until Bro. & Sis. Medina left. I KNEW that the stories about them were false.
Same with you, Deb... I saw the love of the Lord in your life. Some people you just KNOW left for different reasons than what was being said by the leadership.
Linda (Lamblin)
FORMER GRAHAM LAY PASTOR, I like what you write and how you write!
anon3...Thanks for sharing your story. It proves that preachers in ntcc do mimic r.w. davis and any and all teachings that he puts forth--even non-scriptural snipping policy's...
I'm sure there are other things you witnessed that you knew were 'off' and hope that you will continue to read and post.
anon5
Never Harm wrote...Now I am asking myself what does God want me to do. I have a much closer walk with the Lord now.--Never Harm
That is the key: What does God want me to do?
Not: What does ntcc teach?
God wants disciples of Jesus, not disciples of davis and kekel.
Never Harm, your whole post was so good to read. Hope you write some more!
Angela
I just clicked on the kekel land gift links you provided.
~39 acres
~292,000 plus dollars taxable value
~5,000 dollars taxes due per year
So rdub bought the land, gave it to ntcc to dodge the $5,000/year taxes due to Pierce County, WA;
then has ntcc give the land back to kekel at a more convenient time.
So r.w. davis insturcts his "boy" joseph h. olson C.E.O. of ntcc to give the land back to rdub's daughter and son-in-law vis a vis husband and wife michael c. kekel and tanya m. kekel.
I guess that was joey's gift to rdub since the paperwork was approved on rdub's birthday...
Yep, joey just turns a blind eye to rdub's tax-evading ways and gives the land to mikey and tanny.
Quite a present.
Angela
There might not be honor amoung thieves; but there sure is complicity and complacency!
rdub must have some serious dirt on joey!
UNBELIEVABLE!
Speaking of vasectomies, I heard a horrifying account from a brother who was stationed in Hawaii--his pastor (a man who was victimized himself, as Deb has revealed here) drove him, at age 19, to the urologist to get snipped--and he wasn't even married! This twisted org culture was so powerful that a teenaged kid cut off his potential future progeny. Because of the influence of a pernicious "church" and its leaders, who are the ultimate hypocrites and Pharisees of our day, he made this rash decision. What sane person thinks that this kind of thing is in any way normal or desireable? Yet in NTCC, it was promoted to the extent that numerous men submitted to what amounts to a modern form of genital mutilation.
I bet Rodger got a real power buzz from duping men around him to emasculate themselves at his whim. NTCC males, reclaim your manhood and reject this pathetic charlatan and narcissist. You are way better equipped to direct your own lives than he will ever be. Telling him to his face that I was leaving his orbit provided an instantaneous and exhilirating testosterone boost. Try it--I guarantee you'll feel like a free man again, instead of a slave to the interests of these vain elites. You don't need them--they need you.
IRS Code:
"For income tax purposes, a licensed, commissioned, or ordained minister is generally treated as a common law employee of his or her church, denomination, or sect. There are, however, some exceptions such as traveling evangelists who may be treated as independent contractors. If you are a minister performing ministerial services, you are taxed on wages, offerings, and fees you receive for performing marriages, baptisms, funerals, etc. "
taken from: http://ecclesia.org/truth/501-church.html
The Truth About Church Incopration
"Church members should confront their pastors and elders on these issues. Do not let them simply brush you off with the claim that the subject has "been studied already," or that "we have always done it this way." Challenge them to produce a copy of the IRS statutes which state that a Christian church must incorporate as a 501(c)(3) organization in order to carry out its God-ordained functions. They will not be able to do this, because such a law simply does not exist. You may find yourself unwelcome in your church, but at least you will have the satisfaction of having stood for the truth and for the sole prerogative of Christ to govern His own Church."
Kristofer, I must respectfully disagree with this statement you wrote: "The issue is not a tax issue."--Kristofer
1) If r.w. davis 'gave' the land to ntcc so he wouldn't have to pay taxes on it, that is
tax evasion.
2) r.w. davis has always run ntcc, regardless of which of his puppets has his name on today's organizational roster of C.E.O., President, or
Grand High Poobah.
3) davis always knew he would take the land back from ntcc and give it to mikey and tanya. That's what he bought the land for. Giving it to ntcc in the interim was just to
evade paying the taxes on it.
No hard feelings to you Kristofer.
(A)
I believe your research started from the point where ntcc gave the land to mikey and tanny.
(B)
Go back farther in the land's history.
See:
Who owned it (davis).
Who 'gave' it to ntcc (davis).
Why?
So davis would not have to pay taxes on it.
Who 'ordered' ntcc to give it back to the davis family (davis), specifically davis's son-in-law and daughter.
davis, kekel, olson, ashmore, johnson, wright, difrancesco, and any other ntcc board members privy to such dealings are in my opinion corrupt lying thieves.
Angela
The land issue is a textbook example of what is legally called "private inurement." Check it out:
http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=6&catID=2266&qID=4827584
We don't really know the actual motives involved with this transaction, but it's hard to come up with innocent ones. Olson claims that RW always paid the taxes, even when title was vested in the org. Of course, we have no way to corroborate that, but even if it's true, it doesn't alter the illegality of the org gifting the land to Mike and Tanya. Reminds me of another land transaction in the book of Acts, which was rebuked by Peter:
"Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."
God must be more patient nowadays, since RW hasn't dropped dead yet.
WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM; I WORE A CONDOM....
Vic, even if this is true: "Olson claims that RW always paid the taxes, even when title was vested in the org."
Wouldn't those taxes be less than what a private landholder would pay?
Isn't the property tax less for a 501(3)(c) landholder than it is for a private landholder?
So what if r.w. is paying the taxes while the org holds the title? If the org, a 501(3)(c) status organization holds the title, then the taxes are probably less than what r.w. would pay if he kept the title or gave it to tanya up front.
It is shady at best, and seems illegal to me. That can't be right.
All along davis knows the land is going to go to kekel. His excuse for giving it to the org is that davis doesn't want any relatives other than tanya to get the land??? Then give tanya the land up front! davis could still pay the taxes for them if his intentions were so noble.
To quote Kristofer,
Blah! That fruit is rotten!
And really, davis paying the taxes all along proves his intent to maintain power over the land, and give it to tanya.
Seems to me he is guilty; knows he is guilty; and is trying in advance to do damage control by saying,
"What, I paid the taxes!?!"
davis reminds me of a rapist who says,
"WHY ARE YOU COMPLAINING? I WORE A CONDOM!"
Angela
yet
Kristofer,
I agree "We should tell the truth."
Do you know the name of the timber company?
Angela, nonprofits in Washington are only exempted on five acres, and you can be sure the acreage NTCC exempted is the HQ, since that tax bill would be the largest. That land was still taxable regardless of who owned it; I'm not aware of a nonprofit "discount."
The rumor is that RW gave the land to the org, but no one has produced any evidence that he has ever owned it. You can search that parcel on the Pierce County website, and his name never appears connected to it. The lame claim Olson made in his damage control letter was that RW paid for it with his own money, but put it in the org's name in case the school might need it in the future. But even that doesn't matter--once the property passed into NTCC's legal ownership, gifting it to a private party, especially one connected to the corporate leadership, is open and shut private inurement, and forbidden by law.
If the IRS didn't have bigger fish to fry, they wouldn't be getting away with it.
Kris,
Is this what you filed?
Contact the Internal Revenue Service with your suspicions. Go to the IRS website at www.irs.gov and fill out their Form 3949-A. Print it out and mail it to Internal Revenue Service, Fresno, California 93888. Supplying specific examples and documentation to back up your claim, such as copies of files, financial reports and transcripts that show inconsistencies, will bolster your credibility. If the IRS feels that you have provided adequate evidence of fraud, it will investigate.
Concerning the land deal. I think that the whole point is being missed here, and that is R'DUB IS NTCC. Whether there was ever any paper trail at all. The fact of the matter is that the Church for him is a Tax shelter, as it is for mermerous Televangelists and others who can purchase things through their organization/Church or whatever you want to call it.
Example: I have a Church organization. I have money to spend and decide that I want a brand new Bentley. I have absolute and total control over the money, as well as all of my "Yes" Men. I purchase a Bentley worth $200,000.00 and designate it for "Church" use. The Church may indeed (at least on paper) own the Vehicle that I drive, But pray tell.....WHO IS THE BENEFICIARY!!! If "I" am the organization, What the Heck difference does it make?
In the end, I'm the one driving a Car worth 200G's. Do you think I'm going to use a car like that to go "Soulwinning" in?? Think again!
I am an office with a non-profit org here in Washington. A non-profit has to provide services to the public for little or no cost, and cannot make over a certain amount a year before they are taxed. A non-profit cannot provide large gifts of monetary value, nor can they pay their employees or volunteers large amounts of money, or with items worth an equivelant of a lot of money. (Reading that back, I can see I didn't make a whole lot of sense, but it boils down to this - a huge land gift by a non-profit to one of their officers is illegal. It is not a not-for-profit function.)
Being a non-profit, does anyone know exactly what services NTCC provides to the general public? I don't see them creating soup kitchens for the homeless or needy - in fact, if I remember correctly, we were taught that we were not to concern ourselves with volunteering to help the homeless, that if they would just get right with GAWD they wouldn't be homeless anymore. (I have met a few Christians who fell on hard times because of the economy and were homeless for a few months before being able to rectify the situation with God's help. Were they Godless bums, simply because they did not have a home to live in?) I don't see them going to old-folks homes and volunteering to read stories or sing to the elderly.
I mention these things because they are all things I have seen other churches do as a group, and not non-profit churches either. So what services does NTCC provide, that they can justify calling themselves nonprofit?
Thanks Vic.
Thanks everybody!
Vic, Anonymous, Kristofer, Jennifer, Mark G., and Jeff:
You've all made some excellent points here regarding the land gift. And thanks too to Miss Deborah and Greg for this most excellent blog site that helps us all stay connected.
I think it is vital to keep pursuing these issues. I'm sure ntcc wants to keep every dirty detail swept under the carpet when it comes to their shady finances and hypocritical lives.
I mean really, how hypocritical to teach that one should not steal a paper clip, then turn around and break the laws of the land governing nonprofits.
Angela
Gangsters are gangsters, even if they wear expensive suits and drive luxury cars (or call themselves apostles and pastors). Even some mafiosi had mild-mannered public personae, but were nonetheless evil parasites.
Don't be fooled by appearances; these guys don't have scruples when it comes to amassing and protecting money and power. Beware! Refuse to enable them with financial support; instead of contributing to the coffers of the idle rich, put your money where it will do some actual good.
Just to refresh peoples memory this was Olson's absolutely absurd justification and explanation for the land deal.
Mr. Olson wrote...
To All Concerned,
It has come to my attention that there is some concern in regards to the above described property. Please allow me to shed some light on the matter in order to alleviate any concerns that sincere-hearted men and women of God who care deeply for the program of God may have.
A)-Ref.-Purchase:
The property was not purchased with finances belonging to New Testament Christian Churches of America, Inc. The property was purchased through the means of a private party.
B)-Ref.-Manner of Purchase:
The property was acquired in the name of the organization. Even though the land was purchased with finances from a private party, it was bought in the organization’s name to provide for and protect the organization, in the event that this land would be needed and beneficial for the ongoing growth of God’s work. It should be understood that at the time of purchase it was not known if the land would be needed, but the Organization was being provided with the #1 option if the Lord so directed in time to come.
C)-Ref.-Tax Responsibility and Liability:
The property is subject to real estate taxes. Taxes are paid on the property by funds from the same private party who made possible the purchase of the land. No finances of New Testament Christian Churches of America, Inc. have been used to pay the real estate taxes on this property.
May God bless you as we labor together to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ while the door of opportunity is yet open.
In His Service,
J.H. Olson (C.O.B. and President"
Jeff wrote...
If it was such an up front deal then why did Olson always refer to the person that the Org received the from from as a quote, "a private party"? He wrote that on a few occasions. If Olson wasn't trying to hide something he would have simply wrote the private parties name. It's obvious that Olson didn't want to let all the information out.
Also in his explanation, why didn't Olson ever write that Kekel was the individual who received the land?
What was this garbage that Olson wrote about, "if the Lord so directed in time to come"? What, the Lord couldn't figure out what he was going to do with all that land? I guess God couldn't decide whether or not he needed the land for as Olson put it, (God's work) so God had to think about it for a while until God finally decided to just give it to Tanya and Mike Kekel as a GIFT from the ORG.
Olson's explanation was no more than a complete joke and Olson is a joke. Olson is no more than a crooked enabler of RWD and Kekel.
Oh, and Olson prefaced his letter by writing "to alleviate any concerns that quote "sincere-hearted men and women of God who care deeply for the program of God may have".
That was garbage also. What he was saying is that if you are a sincere-hearted man or woman your concerns will be "alleviated" and if your concerns are not alleviated than you are not sincere-hearted. That was just a bunch of psychological garbage that is pure NTCC rhetoric. Olson is no more than a YES MAN CROOK and any respect that I had left for him when out the door when I read this letter that he wrote.
Jeff
Continuation of the land deal message above...
Something else that Olson wrote that is note worthy and I quote...
"Taxes are paid on the property by funds from the same private party who made possible the purchase of the land."
Jeff said...
This is very important because Olson used the word "are" when he referenced the taxes on the land being paid. This brings up many questions. Using the word "are" is present tense which means it was happening when Olson wrote the letter which was only about 1 1/2 years ago.
First, if the land came from timber company, someone still had to buy it because if the timber company gave the land to the NTCC they certainly wouldn't still be paying taxes on the land. That option can't be the case or Olson simply lied.
Second if the land came to the org somehow through Pop Gaylord he certainly wasn't still paying taxes on it because God rest his soul he is passed away. Remember Olson wrote that taxes "are" paid by the same private party who made possible the purchase of the land. So Pop couldn't be paying taxes on the land and the timber company logically wouldn't be.
Now we know the Org gifted the property to the Kekels so there are only two people that I can logically conclude who would pay taxes on the land now that Kekel owns it and that is Kekel himself or RWD. Why would anyone else pay taxes on land that has now become personal, private, property of Mike and Tanya Kekel? If I wasn't sure whether or not the land deal stunk like fish, I knew it did after I read Olson's response. His response is so full of loop holes that it ought to be used in a course about how to tie shoe laces.
Olson was thoroughly vague with his response by never answering any questions at all. Olson is like that. An exNTCC minster today told me that Olson has a history of eluding and failing to give answers to questions and he's done so for years. Olson should have become a professional tap dancer. It's almost impossible to get a straight answer out of the guy and the message he wrote in response to questions and concerns about the land deals was about as evasive as Osama bin laden.
Olson may very well be the biggest crooked politician in the entire NTCC. He is certainly a wolf in lambs clothing because he has all along done all RWD's bidding.
This message is a clear window into Olson character and the NTCCs shady dealings.
Jeff
Jennifer asked:
"So what services does NTCC provide, that they can justify calling themselves nonprofit?"
Can anyone shed some light on this?
I don't see anything they DO.
Oh, sure, they hang signs out like the one at the campground
SAYING
it is a youth camp.
But has it ever been USED that way?
DOUBT IT.
It is another perfect example of the ntcc's Pharisaical ways:
FOR THEY SAY AND DO NOT.
ALL TALK. NO WALK.
BLAHH. THEIR 'FRUIT' IS ROTTEN!
(Thanks again for that truthful statement Kristofer! =D)
Angela
I'd love to see a current ntcc ministers in good standing list!
Something good to be exposed. Brought to the light of day. Is the CHANGES going on in Ntcc. Some are small and some are BIG.
Like Gandy and a bunch going to Nashville Grand Ole' Opry!
Grant playing tight pant wearing football!
A minister's wife in ntcc has a BIG screen TV!
Teenage girls are wearing denium skirts and even saw some wearing baggy pants in there home.
Country music is ok to listen to!
DVD are watched all the time now. And it used to be just the disney movie's for the little kids. NOT ANYMORE! Regular main stream movie's are being watched in minister's home's.
minister's wive's are joining homeschool co-ops. Making friends outside of ntcc!
Some special privilage minister and family are allowed to go to Disneyland! And leave the work of God,GASP!!
Saw another minister's wife wearing a long necklace!
All of these CHANGES may not sound like much to folks reading this. That have never lived in ntcc the cult!
Five years ago. NONE OF these changes were allowed. Oh and secular COLLEGE is now allowed by ministers and there WIVE's!
If folks had done any of these things before. You would have been the main topic for preaching that night at service. Your head would have been on rw davis's platter.
Soon ladies will be wearing earrings,make-up,and pants. If some are not already doing that.
But guess what folks the truth of the PAST cult behaviour that has gone on. Will not be swept under the rug. As Mike K. and Tanya try and make ntcc a mainstream mega church. And rake in the BIG BUCKS! there are many of us here to tell the truth! No matter how nice and lovely they look now. It is all a farse. behind the doors is the ugle truth.
marriage's that have been broken up.
Babies that got miscarried due to overworking a soul-winner.
Financial ruin due to making one man pay for a church and his families needs!
Kids robbed of a childhood. Made to sit duitiful in church. All ironed,curled,starched. And not say a word. Those same kids I know are now leaving ntcc in drove's. There fresh recruits are leaving! No fresh blood.
As we get the word out about what ntcc is REALLY about. More of the military will know as well. So that will end there fresh dumb recruits there!!
Lets all watch ntcc just crumble and GO AWAY. Not to hurt anyone anymore!!
CM
Even if you saw the new faithful ministers list it wouldn't really tell you who had left because there are a couple of ministers who have left that they kept on the list.
The picture of the minister's wife with the big screen TV, that wasn't hers. I believe that picture was taken at her inlaws house.
There are things changing in NTCC but they are lying and covering up so much that it's sick. They keep saying that it's always been like this. The dress code and no TV rule, etc. have always only been for the ministers and their families. What a big fat lie! We were in for around 20 years and at conferences it was preached there all the time that those things were sins, etc. I makes me so angry. Why lie about it. Just say that the policies have been changed. They must really think we have no brains. Well, I guess it looks like alot of them don't because when you talk to the miniters they say the same thing. Just repeating what they have heard like parrots. I just thank God we are finally out. It's so wonderful to look to God and pray what His will for my life is and not always wondering if Rev. so and so was going to be upset.
Never Harm
Uhmm, what's with the lizard biziness?
I'm glad eli's finally gettin' some dough. All that he's done building the ntcc empire. He'd be making some serious dime on the free market!
But to me, lizards are just cats with scales. They are mean. They hiss. And if they want to, they can scratch you BAD.
Ah well. With all the 'compromise' in ntcc, I guess a few lizards is not too serious. I'll bet Sandy is the lucky one doing all the work though? Eli used to be doing good just to get six hours of sleep a night. Any spare time was used for a 20 minute power nap.
So Giz the Wiz has his liz-ards.
Whatever. Life in ntcc is weird.
More to say that will be on Jeff's blog under the Jargon thread =~}
Sassy Frass
Sassy Frass wrote...
I'm glad Eli's finally gettin' some dough.
Jeff said...
That is assuming that Eli hasn't been getting dough all along because of his involvement with all the NTCCs building projects. You best believe this: If Eli was getting rich like Kekel, he certainly would have kept that info secret while deliberately giving the impression that he wasn't doing "that" good. These NTCC guys are notorious for trying to create an impression other than what's really going on.
The lizard business could simply be a front. I understand that what I just wrote is a conspiracy theory and pure speculation but I can tell you that through experience, I've learned to never underestimate these NTCC crooks. They "ALWAYS" have a hidden agenda for everything they do and that is a proven fact, not a speculative theory. These NTCC guys specialize in cover up and deception and that is also a fact so I wouldn't put anything past old Eli.
The mighty Ashmore is a cover up artist. He has enough dirt surrounding his family to fill the san andreas fault.
The NTCC has constantly covered up their dirt so why should it be any different with Eli. I'll just about guarantee that there's more to old Eli than him just being another broke slave to RWD. I could be wrong but I would certainly be surprised if I was. These NTCC leaders like Olson, RWD, Kekel and Ashmore have more tricks up their sleeve than Harry Houdini. For certain they are "ALL" cover up artists. They breed crooks, cheaters and double crossers. Look what happened with Denis, and Marshall and the list goes on. If the NTCC was such a pure organization like RWD has claimed than why have so many been caught cheating on their spouse and we are talking about ministers.
Hunt knew that Denis was going to double cross RWD and Hunt was so scared of RWD and the NTCC bureaucracy that he didn't even tell RWD. I don't think many people realize just how significant the split really was?
What the split meant was that many, many ministers didn't have enough faith and confidence in RWD to even go to him and tell him that it was going to take place because there was plenty of folks who knew. I know because I wound up in the middle of the whole thing and what I witnessed was totally astounding. It was shocking for me to see just how many ministers didn't trust RWD. They had no confidence in him at all and I know because I talked to some of them.
Do folks really understand what that says about RWDs leadership? To have that many of your people forsake you, leave and or double cross you means that your leadership style is about as bad as it can possible be. PERIOD. Denis didn't convince all those ministers that the NTCC was all messed up. They saw it for themselves and Denis was simply a vehicle for their departure. If ministers like Hunt who stayed with the NTCC, didn't even have enough confidence in RWD to let him know before hand that he was getting ready to be double crossed by Denis, what does that say about RWDs leadership? A good leader will always be approachable and trusted by his or her subordinates. That was and is hardly the case with RWD. If half my company or platoon had forsaken me than that would have proved that I was one sorry leader and my military career would have been destroyed.
Jeff
Jeff,
I don't know about the details on the split and Denis doublecross. Where was that discussed? Would it be worth it to do another thread on it?
Please pray for me, John and Greg.
All of these so-called changes tell me one thing. That 20 years of preaching against these things, because they were sins and GOD didn't approve of them-- was ALL a lie!! They said they would NEVER compromise. They bad mouthed those who left ntcc and went to a "compromising" church. They said God NEVER changes His mind!
Well guess what? They are CHANGING. And they can say it was never that way, but IT WAS! I heard it 100's of times. What a bunch of hypocrites.
It doesn't matter how much they change-- until they APOLOGIZE for all the people they plowed and hurt and abused for doing what they now do. God knows.
AXP
I am so sorry Deborah. I didn't know. I wish that I could take the pain away. They are unstable in their thoughts. Rest assured sweetheart that God knows what you went through and God sees everything. Including what goes on at NTCC. Rest assured they will be rewarded justly in the end my love.
Yes,Carly we will pray for you!
Lord we thank you for being a loving Father. We ask that you place your hand on your daughter Carly and her family in her time of need. Lord we thank you for the blessings and promises you have already given us.
In your Son's name I pray Amen.
Anon!
Looks like the word is getting out.
God has blessed with good numbers of first-time readers. Hopefully folks will allow God to work in their lives in a sincere non-ntcc church out there.
When I think of the arrogance to claim your cult "is the last move of God" as ntcc does claim!
Whereas GOD plainly states,
YET I HAVE LEFT 'ME' SEVEN THOUSAND IN ISRAEL, ALL THE KNEES WHICH HAVE NOT BOWED UNTO BAAL, AND EVERY MOUTH WHICH HATH NOT KISSED HIM.__(I_Kings_18v19)
God is not limited. HE IS WINNING!
Remember THIS statement rdub:
..."I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH; AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT."__(Matt._16v18)
Just to be clear, that was JESUS SPEAKING, not r.w. davis or any of his yes-men who claim to be the "last move of God" AS IF!
"BUT OF THAT DAY AND HOUR KNOWETH NO 'MAN', NO, NOT THE ANGELS OF HEAVEN, BUT MY FATHER ONLY." (Matt.__24v36)--Again, Jesus speaking.
If God says no man knows, then no man knows. Not rdub or anyone.
Only the Father.
And are you being about the Father's business? Or are you saving up worthle$$ wealth from your busine$$. Get real.
Cadillacs? Mercedes?
Starving girls in the Philippines.
How deceived can you be?
Angela
"I told Eli the price, and he said, "I don't think so, Brother Moore.""
Kristopher, this reminds me of when I was working for Valley Press in Puyallup, and Mike K. approached me about getting a break on some printing work done for when they were going to open the BS chapel up to the local community. I got samples, and naturally they wanted the most luxurious stock available. They were specifically warned that it would be very expensive, but it was "nothing but the best for God's 'program.'"
I got them a good price, and they were satisfied with the quality of the work, but as soon as they got the bill, they were grumbling and murmuring about how costly it was, trying to get me to chisel my boss (the same Christian boss who had donated hundreds of dollars worth of paper for NTCC's own print shop) for a bigger discount. I made a lukewarm attempt, but they just looked at me like I was nuts and reminded me of how they had specifically issued a warning on the high cost of the requested material and already given them a good deal.
It was very uncomfortable to be placed in that position, but it did serve to alert me to their duplicitous ways. My boss rejoiced with me when I fired them.
Just when you think you've heard it all about the NTCC. They are a bunch of connivers. Wow, I wasn't fully aware that such a pattern existed in the NTCC. And RWD has the audacity to talk about car salesmen? These NTCC guys are a bigger bunch of shysters than a lot of people that I've come in contact with in the car business.
Based upon Vic's and Kristopher's testimonies, the salesmen that I worked with in Toyota's new car department were "WAY" more up-front, straight forward, sincere and honest than these NTCC crook leaders by far. Boy these NTCC crooks are worse than I thought, (if that were even possible). Just when I thought I've heard it all about the NTCC leadership, more startling news comes out.
Jeff
no shower curtains, no doors on the stalls? so much for "holiness" modesty!
"We had to sit down on the toilet with no doors! They didn't even care enough about us to put doors on our stalls!"
Doors! Hah, when they first built the place, there were no stalls on which to hang doors. Yep, that's right--the throne just sat right out there in the open. Only cold showers too. I think that in itself qualifies as a cult mind control tactic. There were similar toilet arrangements when I got to basic training at Ft. Knox, and no doubt the Army used them to break us down down through humiliation and degradation.
The sick thing is that the elites stayed in luxury up at the "lodge," listening to RW's dirty jokes and taking hot showers. If you really were lucky, you might get invited up with some of the other yard boys to the Big House to see what the aristocracy wanted you to think were "blessings" you might also receive (although they knew otherwise) if you just stayed faithful and kept paying those tithes and offerings and sucking up to The Only Man Of God For Our Time (Who Can't Remember The Last Time He Sinned). Then you would get to head back to your dingy ripoff shack and console yourself with fantasies that someday, reward for your "faithfulness" would come.
Here's some reality: your reward will start to come the day you leave that bunch of counterfeits. One thing I have noticed is that without the significant overhead the NTCC lifestyle imposes, eveything is easy. It's like riding a bike downhill. All those hassles will have conditioned you to achieve more success with less effort--win win!
Do it now. You know it's time when you start feeling guilty for staying. Once you realize what you're enabling, there's some accountability. Do the right thing and cut them off. Join the resistance and see them crumble. It could happen!
Vic,
How I remember those showers and toilets! The first year there was a conference at the camp, the showers had NO hot water folks! None-- on purpose. The toilets for years had no privacy, AND you needed to bring your OWN toilet paper. Can't waste God's money on proper hygiene, when God could use that money to buy the Davis' another set of fancy drapes. Brian Pelfrey told me one time, Davis is the kind of person who builds a shower/bathroom with no privacy or hot water. Then as soon as he adds hot water, or puts some doors on the toilets people say, "Isn't pastor such a great person?" When HE is the one who made it that way to begin with!
I stayed at the campground a few times. I hated the cold, the wet, the muddy floors of the showers, the group showers. No thank you. After that we always got a motel or condo. So, not only does your life in ntcc suck, but then you spend all of your money (and then some) to go half way across America to live in misery, discomfort and humiliation at the campground. What a lousy life!
AXP
Yet, when many of us started staying in local hotels, because of the much less than commodious accommodations on the campground, we were excoriated from the stage, and cast as un-spiritual "TV watchers". The same thing happened when many started eschewing the dinning hall (because of the garbage food served), to eat at local restaurants (or even just to get some extra sleep), we were all accused of rushing back to our rooms to "watch TV".
Vic said...
How I remember those showers and toilets! The first year there was a conference at the camp, the showers had NO hot water folks! None-- on purpose. The toilets for years had no privacy, AND you needed to bring your OWN toilet paper. Can't waste God's money on proper hygiene, when God could use that money to buy the Davis' another set of fancy drapes.
*********************
LTravis said...
Sounds like the campground was more like a prison than a retreat.
Sister Shunk,
Hello. You may or may not remember me - I am Brother Johnson from Korea.
I'm sure your husband remembers me!!
Please give my best to Rev Shunk for me,
And may God bless you both and keep you in his loving arms
Right now I am not attending NTCC, nor do I plan on going back...I am attending a Korean Methodist Church with my wife Young-mi and three small children.
It is not the BEST church, but for the sake of sanity and testimony it will have to sufficeth for now.
I had not paid tithe for quite a long time, I have inched back into paying tithe again (or, Young-mi does), at least I have abetter idea where the finances are going!!
Take care,
Bro Johnson
No stalls or doors in the bathrooms. Try changing a tampon or feminine pad with sixteen other women there trying not watch. Yuck!
If you really were lucky, you might get invited up with some of the other yard boys to the Big House to see what the aristocracy wanted you to think were "blessings" you might also receive (although they knew otherwise) if you
From Vic.
Iron sharpens Iron! As I was reading this message. Vic's comment about going to the big house to see the Blessings we might also recieve. Though ntcc will make sure that never happens. Or if it does,only to selected few.
What does this all remind you of folks. Look back in our history. SLAVE's! There was level set up within a Slave community on a plantation.
You had the field workers,which were whipped,beaten. Treated like Dirt.
You got Yardworkers,still bossed around,sometimes slapped,beaten. To keep them in there place!
Then you got,the House workers. The spots where slaves dreamed of working. Still put down,told to get this or that. But not as much beatings. Had to keep them looking nice for vistors.
Ntcc field workers,pioneer workers or ministers they do not really care about. Or even older minister's that are seen as stupid and can keep using them up!
ntcc yardworkers
Those that stick around Washington. Like winter's,Chave's,.. One that stick around,really not do much at all. But GIVE MONEY. Keep them around,and close by! Little bone's tossed to them now and then.
Then the ntcc houseworkers. those that are really good at kissing up. Gesang,Connors,Gandy. Need them blessed,taken care of. Make it look like ntcc is a fun place,blessed to be in ntcc. Oh,we are so loving,we care about you. Sounds like Mormons commercial!!LOL
Ntcc does there best at keeping each of there minister's and families in there postions. And not rise any higher then ntcc wants them.
You get most of your decisions made for you. like the slave's did. You are told where to live,how far fromt he church to live. Where you should work,since you need to give so much of your time to the work of God.
We we did not live a horrific life as the Slave's did. But comparisons are there.
CM
The last time I was up at the lodge, I was summoned to see Olson. I was wearing a conservative pull-over polo shirt. Olson couldn't look at me, said I was immodest because I had neglected to button one of the 3 buttons, and asked me (with his head still turned away) to button my shirt. Inside I was like-- what?! I buttoned one or two buttons, so I looked like a high school geek. I thought it was weird at the time. I mean, a polo shirt not buttoned only opens maybe 6". Plus, he's a guy-- what was the big deal? I don't know why I'm sharing this-- I guess to show how strange they all are.
AXP (another ex-preacher)
"Yet, when many of us started staying in local hotels, because of the much less than commodious accommodations on the campground, we were excoriated from the stage, and cast as un-spiritual "TV watchers". The same thing happened when many started eschewing the dinning hall (because of the garbage food served), to eat at local restaurants (or even just to get some extra sleep), we were all accused of rushing back to our rooms to "watch TV"."
They had people so wound up with guilt that they were actually turning the televisions around in the motel rooms, so they faced the wall. I guess they didn't want those sinner maids to think they were watching some Satanic abomination like Little House on the Prairie, or Leave it to Beaver. I never succumbed to that foolishness, but I did refrain from even once turning a motel TV on. When RW fulminated against the devilvision, I was in full Amen mode.
Then guess what? I was sitting up at the bigshot table once in the fellowship hall with RW and the other teachers and officeworkers, and RW blurted out that he always watched CNN when he was in a motel! His audacity and hypocrisy astonished me, even though I was still drinking the koolaid. But that declaration was just another nail popping out of the NTCC control coffin. The message was clear: the rules only applied to the little people.
Wake up. If RW can watch TV, so can you.
I remember the campground! Yes Kris there was no privacy, even for the ladies. Some ladies brought their own shower curtains, or some people showered in the wee hours. Some of the married couples on camp had a "pickle jar", like that homeless guy on "In Living Color"!
Conference was a fun time to get n touch with friends(even though some "friends acted different after being in Bible School). I hated the constant plowing of women during conference. I often thought RW had deep seeded issues with his mother or something lol!
AXP said...
Olson couldn't look at me, said I was immodest because I had neglected to button one of the 3 buttons, and asked me (with his head still turned away) to button my shirt.
Jeff said...
That is really weird. Maybe he has struggled with homosexual tendencies and as a result he couldn't deal with the temptation of seeing your button unbuttoned. He may have had to give that gay preacher a call if he would have looked at you any longer. Why else wouldn't he have been able to look at you? It's not like you were undressed like the account in the Bible about Noah and his son. Like you said, he is a guy and so are you. That guy is twisted. He needs to come down to earth and get real.
Jeff
The weirdest thing about this is APX undoubtedly had a crew neck t-shirt underneath.
I guess I will join the bad boys and girls club.
I remember the awesome power, and love of God in those early days. In nearly every person I met, who was a preacher, or preachers wife, they possessed a love, and joy and peace that was radiant. All I knew at the time, was that God had become real in my life. That God had saved me, and I wanted every one to find this same salvation.
I would talk to Sis. Rodrequez at differant times and ask questions about our church, and the orginization, and the bible school. She told me all about the early days, and I just wanted to be a part of this Great thing that God was doing.
Rev. and Sis. Rodrequez did not come pounding on my door to come to their serviceman's work in Ft. Polk,
I came pounding on their door!
I remember all the good cooking, and we had church in a 12 x 70 foot trailer house. We sat on the sterio speakers, because we didn't have enough chairs.
Thank God that Connie and I hadn't been sucsessful enough in the serviceman's work to stay, we tried civilian work, and realized that having kid's was an asset to our church work.
More latter
Dave Armer
Still friends, to all who wish it so.
"Olson couldn't look at me, said I was immodest because I had neglected to button one of the 3 buttons, and asked me (with his head still turned away) to button my shirt."
Is this on the same campground with the open showers?
weird!
Anonymous said...
Is this on the same campground with the open showers?
Jeff said...
Excellent logic!!! Once again with the NTCC; the old double standard. What in the world would Olson have done if he'd had to use one of those open showers or open toilets? Sat there with blind folds on? This is exactly another reason that I can't stand the NTCC. Illogical people really annoy me and Olson clearly falls in that category. Worried about a button. I wonder if he is worried about Grant running around in tight football pants or shorts to play basketball. Oh I forgot, it's not his job to worry about other board members. The good old double standard is in full effect.
Jeff
Tanya Kekel the Jello Queen Gone Bad
Anonymous said...
The last time I was up at the lodge, I was summoned to see Olson. I was wearing a conservative pull-over polo shirt. Olson couldn't look at me, said I was immodest because I had neglected to button one of the 3 buttons, and asked me (with his head still turned away) to button my shirt. Inside I was like-- what?! I buttoned one or two buttons, so I looked like a high school geek. I thought it was weird at the time. I mean, a polo shirt not buttoned only opens maybe 6". Plus, he's a guy-- what was the big deal? I don't know why I'm sharing this-- I guess to show how strange they all are.
AXP (another ex-preacher)
.........................
That is so typically hypocritical of Olson. What about Luna on the building crew wearing skin-tight shirts. Or Tanya Kekel with clothes so tight that looking at her is like looking at jello poured into a ziploc bag!!
Double standard hypocrites.
Sounds like mild hazing to get you to leave AXP.
iyf
I remember well the facilities at the campground. I was thankful I only had to stay there once. At the time I believe I was 15 or 16, and EXTREMELY shy about my body. I had to shower with my back to the door the entire time, and I wished I could have left my undergarments on. I had never been naked in front of ANYONE but my mother, and even then, I don't think she had seen me completely naked since I was 13ish. It was very uncomfortable for me and left me with quite the fear in my heart that someone might see me naked. Here I'd been raised to not be naked in front of anyone, now I was being asked to be naked in front of other people, strangers!! I was also very uncomfortable seeing other women naked, and never seen anyone but my mother naked. Again, I was extremely uncomfortable and felt that I could not raise my eyes from the floor. Thinking back I can still feel that intensly uncomfortable feeling. Even now, in my late 20's I do not undress in front of people I do not know, and except for during the birth of both my children have not been completely naked even in front of my nearest and dearest friends. I think it is very wrong to expect this of women, and I equate it with sexual abuse of children who are required to perform their toiletries in front of adults they do not even know, including things relating to their menstrual cycle. I wish I had reported it to someone, that's how strongly I feel about it.
Kristofer, They really did 'do that' to women at the camp. NO PRIVACY.
Yum Yum. Tanya Kekel looks like "jello poured into a ziploc bag!!"
Pimps- Yum Yum. Tanya Kekel looks like "jello poured into a ziploc bag!!"
Nothing like prostituting your own wife to all. Pimps.
I guess I will join the bad boys and girls club.--David (Armer)
Welcome! That was so funny.
The rest of your post is so touching. I think most of us who got in the ntcc were won by good godly folks that loved in action the way you are describing the environment at the servicemen's home in Ft. Polk when you were there.
Of course, over time things changed. More and more rules were made. Less reliance on the Holy Spirit's leading became the 'norm'. Until ntcc became an organization. It's no longer the body of Christ depending on the True Head Jesus for direction. Instead everything revolves around the davis dyansty and its 'leaders'. Rules and religiosity replaced heartfelt Holy Ghost leading and true Christianity.
Are there still Christians in ntcc? Sure. My question is why? The ntcc teaches you to override the Holy Ghost in so many ways it is ungodly.
I wish the true Christians would admit that they don't need ntcc. ntcc desperately needs them to keep their rich 'leaders' rich. (But they are poor.)
I just believe that message has to be repeated to those 'in' ntcc. You don't need them. They need you--but for all the wrong reasons.
Angela
RULES=POWER--In his most intriguing book "THE SHACK" author Wm. Paul Young makes this concise observation:
"Religion must use law to empower itself and control the people who they need in order to survive."
*In other words, ntcc must use rules to give the upper-ups power to control the peons who do the work and live lives of sacrifice. All this truly only serves to make the rich get richer. Meanwhile the rich do no work; but play and do everything they told you workers not to do (rules).
ntcc needs you.
You don't need them.
Angela
IF RULES = POWER, WHY DO THE RULES CHANGE?
1)-The purpose of the rules is to maintain power.
2)-Power must be transferred to a davis dynasty heir.
In the specific case of "The Vasectomy Policy" this rule had to change for at least one family, the davis family, because they need an heir to the throne that davis has carefully crafted his ministry into.
At first "The Vasectomy Policy" was essential to keep ministers down to easily moved couples, not large families. This had the financial benefit of being able to zero out those escrow accounts too.
But all that power and money has to go to someone. So for a short season, when teenya wanted to get preggers, well, then the policy could be reversed, (and for select board members their prior snipping too).
It is apalling. But the obvious can no longer be denied.
All davis cares about is his wealth. He's made his name for himself and he wants that name to live on.
You, who do the work; you do not matter to davis. You are just a cog in the machine. You are expendable. Your dreams for a family do not matter. That would hinder the work of God (davis speaking). But, . . .
It's different when it's your family.--tanya (davis) kekel speaking.
Special rules. Special priveleges.
Duality and hypocrisy.
Sin the ntcc way.
Angela
RULES AND HIERARCHY--A trip back to The Shack--by Wm. Paul Young
"The 'will to power and independence' has become so ubiquitous that it is now considered 'normal'." [ . . . ]
"It is like water to fish, so prevalent that it goes unseen and unquestioned. It 'is' the matrix; a diabolical scheme in which you are hopelessly trapped even while completely unaware of its existence."
..
But trust me, it exists. davis and his have carefully crafted a hierarchy of power to get them whatever they want no matter what it costs YOU. And the rules ARE different for them and theirs. What good are rules controlling the masses if the elite royalty can't spend all that money and toss around all that power???
It is "diabolical" and "ubiquitous".
It is so "prevalent" that it SEEMS normal. Even when davis is publicly humiliating Christine Devonshire because she wanted to have a baby. So davis, in a conference, has David Devonshire, Christine's HUSBAND stand up. Then davis proffers this MARRIED MAN as if he is FREE FOR THE TAKING all because Christine wanted to have a baby.
"normal" in ntcc is diabolical.
Diabolical in ntcc is "normal".
Angela
HIERARCHY--A SELF-PRESERVATION SCHEME--More from Wm. Paul Young's book "The Shack"
"Once you have hierarchy you need rules to protect and administer it, and then you need law and enforcement of the rules, and you end up with some kind of chain of command or a system of order that destroys relationship [with God] rather than promotes it. You rarely see or experience relationship apart from power. Hierarchy imposes laws and rules and you end up missing the wonder of relationship that we [God] intended for you."
..
In other words, ntcc has set up its churchy 'leaders' and they need the rules to protect those self-appointed positions. They need rules to apply their man-made doctrine to control you. They need "law" -- legality and rules -- to compel further obedience. They need to enforce the rules to make their man-made system work. 'Disobedience' is punished with humiliation or ostracism or both.
The chain of command is a pyramid with bottom feeding spies and sycophants at the lowest level, sycophantic wannabe tyrants in the middle, obsequious yes men at the top board-member level, and the coup de gras Grand High Poobah, High Grand Poobah, and Poobah's High Grandson at the pinnacle.
Pyramids remind me of Pharaoh. Hmmn.
I wonder if they will have an similar end. Why? Because the ntcc has, in my opinion, systematically destroyed the relationship of good Christians with their Loving God. But God is The Judge, not I.
Angela
WHEN RULES REPLACE RELATIONSHIP, PEOPLE BECOME PROPERTY [SLAVES]
"When you chose independence [from God] over relationship [with God], you became a danger to each other. Others became objects to be manipulated or managed for your own happiness. Authority, as you think of it, is merely the excuse the strong use to make others comform to what they want."--Wm. Paul Young in "THE SHACK".
..
Does that sound like ntcc to you?
It sure sounds like ntcc to me:
ntcc chose DEPENDENCE ON davis OVER A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. Consequently ntcc is a danger to all who enter their doors. Because in ntcc people have become mere objects and property [slaves] for the 'leaders' to use, manipulate, and manage all for the selfish agendas of the 'leaders' to be fulfilled.
Vasectomies for you and yours were encouraged to keep your family manageable and portable--ever-ready and at the beck-and-call of the 'leaders'. It was a matter of convenience and money to them; no matter how inconvenient and costly it was to you. You are not a person to them. You are merely another asset for them to dispose of at their whim.
And as for authority.... Just because somebody says it's God's will for you, don't believe them. These guys appointed themselves the authority. How do I know? God is not double-minded. God clearly states that children are a blessing. davis and his yes-men lying to others and contradicting God's word shows they are only using their self-appointed authority as an excuse and for selfish reasons to make you conform to their stupid and selfish agendas.
Angela
YOU, THE INDIVIDUAL, WILL BE REPLACED
TO KEEP THE BORG GOING...
Wm. Paul Young, in his book "THE_SHACK"
says:
"In your world the value of the
individual is constantly weighed
against the survival of the system."
In ntcc's 'world' your value IS
constantly weighed against the survival of ntcc.
If you want a child, your husband
will be paraded around like a slave on an auction block because You are
"hindering the work of GOd"!
If you become too expensive as an
employee, you can be replaced with a
nubie. In 'the world' it's called the McJob Factor. Entry level employees simply cost less than skilled laborers.
If you become too popular you will be run off. You are a threat to the
ntcc's heir-apparents the kekels.
If you dare to think for yourself and
'question' the ntcc's 'authority' you
will be run off; and they will lie
about you and try to assainate your
character to discredit you.
***They don't want others to go get any 'strange' (read ENLIGHTENED) ideas--
Like:
---Why is it ok for leaders to do things but not ok for members?
---Where does all the money go?
---Why should kekel run the borg?
Has he pioneered churches, worked in servicemen's homes, or gone on the
foreign mission field to dig out and
build a church?
---What is the focus of the borg?
Making more money for the few while the majority who do the work starve or barely get by living paycheck to
paycheck.
Most people doing the work in ntcc have no money for:
doctors
automobiles
new clothing
gifts for loved ones
emergencies, fun, or
RETIREMENT,
or you name it...
And anyone who dares to notice THE
TRUTH ABOUT ntcc WILL BE SACRIFICED TO KEEP THE borg GOING...
Angela
3:31 AM 2/15/2010
FREEDOM OF SPEECH TAKES A TOLL ON THE ntcc SO MORE ARE SACRIFICED to THE BORG...
"First one person, and then a few, and fianlly even many are easily sacrificed for the good and ongoing existence of that system."--"THE SHACK" by Wm. Paul Young.
..
"It didn't affect me."--r. w. davis's reaction to the HOP / denis debacle that caused a huge split in ntcc and caused many preachers to leave ntcc.
See how 'valuable' you are to ntcc?
To davis you just don't matter....
If you don't like reading, then just
pick up a copy of the movie Ant Z... It's an animation. But the morale is the same as what Young said above and you will see ntcc in it!
Now go get a copy of Disney's A BUG'S LIFE. Pay close attention to Hopper (davis/kekel) and the scene where he tells his fellow grasshoppers, "Guys, order another round, coz we're staying here."
davis, like Hopper, will go to any extent to crush anyone who stands up against davis's tyranny. Because davis knows
he needs you, you don't need him.
But he can afford to lose one if it means he keeps the other thousand worker ants busy in unquestioning loyalty. Yeah, he wants to get rid of that one Voice that will TELL THE TRUTH about the ntcc and their crooked ways. He can't afford to lose his following. They pay for his Cadillacs (and then some).
But now it's getting too hard to control everyone through bullying. Because now information is more readily available to those SEEKING THE TRUTH ABOUT ntcc. So davis has no choice but to let more and more go.
Now they have to 'compromise' and change all those rules they used to exploit people to get them to do what they want. ntcc has to 'compromise' and be more like 'the world' so they can replace those of us who no longer drink their Kook-Aid.
BLOGS WORK. FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS POWER! Why? Because God said,
KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH WILL MAKE YOU FREE!!!!
Angela
THE VICIOUS CIRCLE OF LEGALISM AND ANY HIERARCHY...
Hierarchy established to maintain the law is consumed by its own need to preserve the system. Rules established to preserve the system have to be changed to accomodate the whims of the hierarchy. In effect the whole system collapses in on its own hypocritical self. (ntcc)
I like what Wm. Paul Young wrote in the Shack when he said:
"If you had truly learned to regard each other's concerns as significant as you own, there would be no need for hierarchy."
The only way to defeat hierarchy and legalism is to not use it in the first place. This is done through love. As God taught us,
THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF.
That is the fulfilling of the law that negates the need for the law.
God's Word is so pure!
Angela
FOR WANT OF A SPERM, THE EGG WAS LOST.
FOR WANT OF THE EGG, A SOUL WAS NOT BORN.
FOR WANT OF THAT SOUL, YOUR SON WAS LOST...
BECAUSE IT WAS THAT SOUL GOD HAD APPOINTED TO REACH YOUR HEIR...
MAKES YOU THINK, DOESN'T IT?
I'm not against birth control, per se. But I am against one man making a blanket-rule policy that contradicts God's Word, or His Spirit's guiding individuals to live according to their God given dreams!
And I am even more against such a policy when the one making it doesn't keep it nor require his family members to keep it--HYPOCRISY.
May God Require It Of You.
For too long ntcc has been playing God. And that statement can be interpreted in more than one way.
Time for ntcc to go and for God to be God again.
Angela
This is AXP. To put my button story into perspective-- I had known Olson for a good 15 years, had spent countless hours at his house and around him. And yet, he treats me like I'm some newbee who he just met for the first time. The whole time I'm thinking, Why doesn't he just talk "normal" to me? But anoyone who knows Olson knows he can't give a yes or no answer without first struggling on how to answer it. Hope that clarifies things.
AXP
How well I remember those bathrooms at conference! As a woman who was never in the military I was horrified. I see no one has mentioned yet the rule that husbands and wives were not allowed to have sex while staying on the campground. It sounds like Jim Jones. I'm sure those in the lodge did what they wanted to. I hated that my "vacations" were just driving across the country to hear other ministers and their wives made fun of and put down. For twenty years I had to put up with that. Oh, glorious day when we finally left. All that wasted money for seminary.
I wouldn't concern myself with Eli not having money. He told my husband that he was living just fine off the money he got from his stock in Starbucks.
"I wouldn't concern myself with Eli not having money. He told my husband that he was living just fine off the money he got from his stock in Starbucks."
Ha! Rev. Gesang said that? I seriously doubt that. That is a classic line from the leadership in NTCC's inner circle. They all are in leadership positions in a 'non profit' organization and they are living fat lavish lifestyles, and they all "made their money by making wise investments." So, you and I shouldn't worry about where the money goes that gets constantly sent to the HQ's and put into bank accounts that pastors may never see. Pastors get switched out of churches like people switch out underwear, and the church members just give and give, but never get to see where the money goes. Then a handful of them go to Bible School and see the fat lavish lifestyles of a few privileged, and there is still no accountability to the lower echelons of the ministers, and they are spoon-fed the same answer: they made their money from wise investments- they don't take a cut of the tithes. Right!
I didn't know we could even make wise investments. The only thing that we ever heard was ok to do was to buy some crummy US savings bonds, coz if you do something else, it's gambling. So, ol' Eli is playing the stock market, eh? That's gambling in NTCC. How can a card-carrying preacher be living in continual sin? How did he get the spare change to even think about investing in the stock market? Usually you have to have some good money to even step up to the plate to do something like that, don't you? You don't see any struggling preachers running the serviceman's homes investing in the stock market, do you? They probably need every dollar that comes in. They can't afford to take a chance with their money like some of the privileged class can. They talk about how they invested their money. You have to have a decent chunk of change to invest some of it, coz while that money sits in an investment, you still have to pay your bills. Any way you slice it, it still looks to me like a privileged class preying on the weak. If that is true, and they just honestly worked for their money, and made wise investments, why can't they pass on some of their great investing wisdom to some of their poor underprivileged servants? RW gave a lame class on money management, and basically told us to write down what we buy. He spent hours asking us the question, what are you investing your money in? Did he EVER give us an idea of WHAT we could invest in? We left his class still wondering, what CAN we do with our money. Now we are finding out that all along, Pastor Davis made his money from wise investments, and Gesang played the stock market, and Kekel alluded to something like he made his money from some property in St. Louis that "has been a blessing" to other ministers over the years. What does that mean? You rented out little rooms in your building to preachers? Where did you get the money to buy a building? Don't tell me you got it from writing down in a little notebook how much you spent that week.
The majority of the money that lines the pockets of the upper echelon of the ntcc was put there from honest servicemen and women.
If any ntcc minister has invested in the stock market they should burn in hell because of their own stupid rules. This also applies to all the "rule changes" that has taken place that was once full blown sin and rebellion. If you wear basketball shorts or football pants you have committed sin according to your own stupid rules. We have heard it all and your rules have condemned you to hell. I don't care how you spin it, stick a fork in it your done. Oh by the way, that whole campground thing makes me puke.
A bit more to add to the Slave comparision.
The white slave owners and families loved to flaunt that they were the one's in control. What does rw,mk,olson,johnson,ect do when they come into Church. They come last. Lots of Flash with there fancy vechile's. Nice cloths. Walk up all Grand like. As if there is a red carpet under there feet.
To SHOW OFF. we are better off then you 'slave" minister and families. Those punches,slaps on the back. remember who is in charge punches. Those he may have shown actual attention to. Those are his Pet("house")minister's(Cardenus's,Perez's,Chave's,Winter's) all of them have done VERY little. But are mk's pets. They LOVE to kiss up,lap up any small amount of attention they might get. For what? None of them will rise any higher then they are right now. Oh and the Connors as well. Company men,or kiss up men!!!
None of the ntcc ministers will rise to be rich. Maybe a decent living. Oh and think there all that because they buy a leather coat,and a decent USED vechile. I thought it was not about materialstic items we own!!! So rw MANSION is something he should not have!
mk,will love to point out. That minister's have not because they are poor leaders. ALOT Of it stems from being sent out with NO HELP! All the finances on ONE MAN's shoulders. As if he is ever going to get anywhere. MK and the rest want there minister's to stay in there place. Keep there balanace of power in tack!
CM
"I see no one has mentioned yet the rule that husbands and wives were not allowed to have sex while staying on the campground."
Say WHAT? HAHAHA--when did that one start? You know, RW always told us "you make the rules." I'd love to know what incident prompted the Campground Celibacy Act! Someone must have gotten a little too rambunctious for RW's prudish sensibilities (although it's pretty hypocritical for a serial dirty joke teller with a questionable sexual history himself to prohibit lawful relations between spouses).
Not watching TV in a motel room is one thing, but I think I'd have succumbed to disobedience on this one had I ever heard it. Man! It's the only "vacation" you ever get, and you cant even relax with your wife or husband. What a load of B(ible) S(chool).
"Ha! Rev. Gesang said that? I seriously doubt that."
I wouldn't. Eli has labored harder then all of those boardmembers, and been totally faithful, but he's never been admitted to the inner circle. I believe I heard that Sandy had some money they used to build their home, and he's always been frugal and diligent. It was a long time before he had anything, but now that he has capital, he is well positioned to multiply it.
It's unfortunate that the borg has taken one of the nicest and best people I ever knew and twisted him around to where he would even pull a stunt like that spring incident. I'm disappointed. I think RW keeps him on the second string because he knows Eli has a conscience that will only bend so far. But it will bend some, at least for "pastor."
I was a struggling teacher, and I made some money in the stock market. I'm sure others also realized that RW's savings bond strategy wouldn't rescue us from senior-citizen poverty. A rolling stone gathers no moss, so those who stay in Graham are much more able to accumulate savings than the poor suckers out on the field. And buying stocks really doesn't take much nowadays. Trades are about 8 bucks, and you can open an online account with only a few hundred dollars. Eli's a born wheeler-dealer, and I can easily see him profiting from equities.
Rick cried many a tear while Mike and Tanya rejoiced over the news of the coming of RWDs grandson....--Jeff
Jesus wept. (John 11v35)
David and the six hundred men with him lifted up thier voice and wept, until they had no more power to weep. (ISam. 30). But then they went out (to war) and David recovered all.
To every thing there is a season...
A time to weep.
A time of war.
A time to love, and a time to hate.
What time is it???
Did anyone ever notice the valet parking provided to the higher-ups, especially when it was raining? I wonder what would have happened if one of us had driven up, waited for someone to come open the door for us, and then gone inside with the car left there. We probably would have been verbally beaten for daring to expect anyone to park our car for us so that we didn't have to walk through the huge parking lot with our contacts (excuse me visiters) in the pouring down rain. Just one more advantage to being part of the leadership I suppose.
CAMPGROUND CELIBACY ACT?
I think I've heard it all now. WOW!
Folks, I'm not making this up. I was there. My husband worked on the building crew for rw davis and helped build those fences.--Angela
Have to correct something. Eric was there and working on the building crew when those fences were built but I think he was working on a different project like the tabernacle. I think george the snake (aka dad) keener and someone else installed the fences.
But the focus was definitely on keeping the insurance adjuster happy, not on protecting the kids. I say that because prior to that several kids had free roam of the camp when their parents were there for conferences (regina olson),
building the camp (johnsons daughters debbie and becky)
or on-site camp-care-takers bradeens kids (Jenny and Joshua) and Mears kids (Ed and Terra)
No fences were up then, because the insurance was not being paid for a kids camp until davis had a grandson he wanted to bring on the camp...
It's different when it's your kid.
Just keeping it real.
Angela
As the Song Leader in NTCC Church for many years in Korea, you tend to see things in a totally different light.
One thing I hated was when I had to go back UP to the pulpit to led the congregation into 100's of songs for a so-called "moving of the Holy Spirit". "God's not dead, He's still alive..blah blah blah I've got him, I've got him"..So I thought I would be through a few times and McDonald or Hannah or whomever just KEPT ON SINGING These songs TO DEATH....They decided when to stop the music, not God.
And then, different Church's sang different songs! We were not all on one accord. And then you were ASSUMED to already know the song that you never sang before and leadership would look at you with disdain if you did not know it...
Just wanted to put that out there since we are airing all the dirty laundry, albeit mine was a most humerous one.
Anyone know what MacDonald is up too these days? MCK says he went back to Korea. That was last year... If he did, that is fraud waste and abuse. I mean, the guy was in Korea Twice already!!
I lost some respect for the man when I found out what he said about me behind my back, for it was on my back amd the sweat of my brow he rode for the longest, finances and otherwise, but his loss - actually NTCC's loss is another church's and God's Gain!!
Bro Johnson
Bro Johnson
"What time is it???"
Time for the house of Eli (and I don't mean Gesang) to fall.
to kristofer moore,
if you are the chris i think you are please email me at voltron@safe-mail.net
i'd love to talk with you again !
we roomed together with grant. ;)
There is something that must be understood about NTCC's Missionaries (not overseas in Servicemen's homes)...They get $200 per month, per missionary ($400 per couple) set aside for them for when they come back (unless this has been increased).
If they don't stay with NTCC upon their return, they forfeit this money. The Missionaries know this. We all know this. This was told us in conference by Pastor Davis many years ago.
For example, if a Missionary couple stays out of country for 10 years, this is $48,000 for the couple (whenever they are reassigned to the US they will get this). Don't count on Rev. MacDonald, Rev. Rodrigues, or Rev. Devonshire leaving. This is more money than they could ever hope for otherwise while a part of NTCC.
They will have to spend most (all) of it (car, furniture, conferences, clothes, etc) within the first year or two back, but at least they get it.
They are entitled to the money (because it was promised), but shouldn't they get it even if they exit NTCC...even if they exit directly from the country they are assigned to? Because the reasons (can't work, etc) for giving them the money still existed for the entire time they were Missionaries.
But, NTCC won't do this. All you have done for NTCC is moot if you are not in good standing (which means with them). There are strings attached, as with most/all things NTCC.
What NTCC does in this is akin to an employer confiscating your 501K if you quit or are fired.
The only way to leave NTCC is poor. But so what, you were poor while with them. The difference is, after you leave you can begin to amass (and keep for yourself) the resources necessary to take care of yourself and your family.
Gregory
"When RW heard that I said something negative about the org using the internet, he pointed his finger at me very aggresively and said, "YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH THE INTERNET?""
What a total hypocrite! One time he buttonholed me in the church foyer before service to inquire whether the report he had heard about me having a modem (this was the early-mid '90s) was true. I confessed, and he asked me what I did with it. I told him that I used it to log on to local online bulletin boards (not many of those around now, since the internet has proliferated), mostly to download free software (because I didn't agree with their freebooting ways when it came to commercial software piracy). Then he asked me about the internet. I told him I had been on it before, but didn't have an account (couldn't afford one!). He said he heard there was porn on the internet, and I told him that I'd never seen any, but that I supposed if that was what one was looking for, he could probably find it. He didn't rebuke me; it was the "concerned pastor" act.
Then service started. Not too far in, he locked and loaded both barrels and pointed them right between my eyes: "SOME OF YOU," he thundered, "HAVE MODEMS ON YOUR COMPUTERS. OH, YOU SAY YOU'RE NOT WATCHING PORN, BUT HOW DO I KNOW THAT? BLABLABLABLA..." ad nauseum. It was spineless. He couldn't even deal with me about it personally, one on one, he just had to get up in his big pulpit and sink the plow in.
After service, Eli Gesang came to me gloating. It made me think he may have been the one who ratted me out. I said to him that I was still glad I had one, and from that moment on, I believe he regarded me as not being all the way in the boat (I guess he was right, too). He told me that what I said had deeply disturbed him, that there were some things "you just don't say." Whatever. I'm sure that he reported that response to his taskmaster too, and it wasn't much longer until the campaign to run me off began in earnest.
Look at them now. There is a lame official NTCC website, and Eli has his own online lizard emporium. RW's up in your face if you criticise the internet. Maybe he's a bit sensitive, since this issue was at the heart of the HOP split.
I guess I was just a bit ahead of the curve. But I'm not holding my breath for any apologies.
"They will have to spend most (all) of it (car, furniture, conferences, clothes, etc) within the first year or two back, but at least they get it."
Perhaps RW lets them rot overseas because he doesn't want to pay out. All he has to do is stonewall them long enough, and eventually they'll get sick of it and leave the org, so he'll never have to give them what they've earned. Sounds like the "zero the escrow" scam behind the musical pastors routine here in the US.
These guys are swindlers and charlatans, wolves in sheeps' clothing. Flee their depredations and don't look back (unless it's to warn others).
"He said RW Davis conveyed to him that he even is secretly still against the internet."
That's believable. The last thing RW wants is for a guy like John MacDonald to figure out what's really going on. I was in the Army with John, and always knew him to be the real deal; it's sad that he's been duped into supporting the NTCC mafiosi. RW gives him the mushroom treatment: keep him in the dark and shovel him plenty of manure.
"They will have to spend most (all) of it (car, furniture, conferences, clothes, etc) within the first year or two back, but at least they get it."--Gregory
Perhaps RW lets them rot overseas because he doesn't want to pay out. All he has to do is stonewall them long enough, and eventually they'll get sick of it and leave the org, so he'll never have to give them what they've earned. Sounds like the "zero the escrow" scam behind the musical pastors routine here in the US.--Vic
B-I-N-G-O. YOU GET THE PRIZE!--FREE
lyrics to be sung to the tune BINGO:
THERE WAS A HIRELING, HAD A SCAM,
AND ESCROW WAS IT'S NAME, OH-
E-S-C-R-O; FORGET THE "W"
ZERO OUT THE Eh.eS-CROW
AND TO THE BANK WE GO-OH!
THERE WAS A HIRELING, HAD A SCAM, AND RODGER WAS HIS NAME, OH-
E-S-C-R-O; FORGED BY r.w.
ZERO OUT THE Eh.eS-CROW
AND TO THE BANK WE GO-HO!
MOTHER!
Angela
WHY WE NEED THESE BLOGS--JOHN 10V10p--
THE THIEF COMETH NOT BUT, FOR TO STEAL, AND TO KILL, AND TO DESTROY:
The ntcc thieves have been coming around to steal your money, your lives, and your souls.
People go into ntcc as decent God-fearing Christians. Over time they buy into the lies r.w. has forged and perpetrated as gospel. Their Christianity is destroyed like the rock that has that drop of water wearing it down.............
When I knew the MacDonald's back in '92 they were kind. I was so shocked when I read Kristofer's testimony. That was not the John MacDonald I knew. Is there more than one? Do I have the wrong name? Is that the same couple who ran the servicemen's home in Ft. Campbell / Pembroke, KY before the Gandys took over that work??? They used to be nice people who looked out for other peoples' needs. In fact, she gave me a beautiful skirt.
But ntcc has a way of stealing from people. It robs them of their faith in that inner voice, the Sweet Spirit of God by bombarding them with r.w.'s hateful venom and humiliating them when they do try to stand for the truth.
And now they go beyond humiliation and intimidation to brute force, judging by what Kristofer shared.
Which I believe. And also by the "mm" testimony that was posted on Tracy's blog where they threw that man out physically onto the ground...
What do you think is next?
O JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM, 'THOU' THAT KILLEST THE PROPHETS, AND STONEST THEM WHICH ARE SENT UNTO THEE,--MATT. 23V37p AKJV
Ange
Cue the music to that ntcc classic:
One of these days, it won't be long,
You'll be stoning prophets singing escrow songs
You'll tell them G-S-Y-H too,
but when you die,
I would not want '2' be you,
Nope, even today I
don't want to be like you
cross-over to that Alan Parson's Project hit
I WOULDN'T WANNA BE LIKE YOU
I DON'T CARE
WHAT YOU DO
WOULDN'T WANNA
WOULDN'T WANNA BE LIKE YOU-oo-oo-oo-oo
wouldn't want '2' be like you
cos you stink, I think...
Sassy
Vic Johanson said...
"He said RW Davis conveyed to him that he even is secretly still against the internet."
He is probably secretly against TV(CNN), Alcohol(Nyquil), and stealing(Escrow accounts).
I'm sure verna wants all of us to
=====>> "MOVE ON"<<=====
That way they can continue swindling folks. Oh and be careful not to let a root of bitterness grow in you, "Oooh, Oooh Ooh" verna warns.
MORE TWISTING SCRIPTURE TO FEAR MONGER. Let's just cut and slice this little part of the whole bible and hold it over your head as a threat that YOU WILL GO TO HELL if you don't stop EXPOSING NTCC FOR THE CULT IT IS. Better be careful boys and girls. THE BOOGEY MAN IS GONNA GET YA.
The more people tell us to MOVE ON the longer we should stay and the harder we should look. It should make us wonder what are they trying to hide? They want me to MOVE ON so they can continue to molest people unaccountable, unhindered, unstoppable. Let's stay and see what is really going on there that they don't want us to see!X!
A man and his family were staying in an apartment complex that was known for its faulty wiring.The management company would halfway fix the building, just to make inspection. Then the wiring would break again The family had friends and neighbors..even a few acquaintances. That resided in that building. One day the man arrived home from his job at the hospital and found the building on fire. He got his family out fine and even his beloved pets. He assumed his neighbors knew how to get out of the building, so he let them be. The building was a total loss, many lives lost. The management company apologized and let the tenants that survived move into another of their buildings. They even acquired some new tenants.The same thing happened in the new building
The next week the man and his family found a new building with a new management company. There was a knock at the door. It was the police and the man was placed under arrest. The man was incredulous and asked why was he being arrested. The officer said "You moved on, and did not sound the alarm"!
Anon!
I expect to be denouncing NTCC until the day I move on to the next life--it's the least I can do (hopefully they won't put a contract out on me to hasten that day). I'm not bitter in the least; the intervening years of abundant blessing have bestowed philosophical detachment. However, I haven't forgotten what they did to me and others, and the knowledge that they are still perpetrating outrages on people motivates me to publish their shenanigans for all to see.
I am just asking as a matter of temperance, and also, because I just would hate to see people who were once in love with God to allow anger to destroy the desire that you once had to reach people who don't know Jesus. I will continue to post things but on my
--------------------------------
Why oh why do people think because you come on and blog,expose ntcc. That your bitter,angry,not moving on,do not love God or lost soulS! I come on for just that purpose. I will continue to toss out that life preserver to folks in ntcc,folks thinking of even walking in a door of a ntcc church. It can even be seen as a calling. To save folks from even stepping foot in the ntcc CULT. When I first left ntcc I anquished over even being involved in ntcc. Was in shock once I realized it was a cult and I had stayed in way to long. And had a long path of healing in front of me. Which I am still on that path. Blogging,exposing,using my voice again. Is healing,is moving on,is SAVING lost souls. Going overseas is not some high and mighty wonderful calling over any other calling. I want to take what I experienced and do something with it. Help others! Why would I want to move on and forget anyone else that may get caught in ntcc snare's of FAKE LOVE<FAKE CARING,FAKE HolyGhost,FAKE SMILES,FAKE HUGS!!!
I do not see myself starting a blog. For now I do like to stay kind of ANON! I was a mousy,quiet female in ntcc. As are about 95% of the women in ntcc. Lose your identity,indpendence thinking ,decision making. Treated WORSE then women in the 1930's! At least women were treated special. We were BASHED in ntcc,made to feel like less then humane! Not anymore! I got my voice back. I plan on using it for a long time to come.
Have I moved on. Oh yes I have. Totally enjoying life,making memories with my kids and hubby! Going to get a job soon! Still Love God,just bought a new Bible. Not the Old KJV anymore! Still attend Church. Not a stuffy,tradtional type Church. But it is all about MY relationship with God! Nothing else matters. Not how others see how I dress,my friends,what I listen or watch,where I hang out. That is ALL BETWEEN ME and GOD!
So go on into your ministry. But you may not even be moving on. Just trying to push it under the rug.
CM
I just noticed Gregory's profile on here. I'm glad you added that part of your story here. I think it is so important for people to consider that if ntcc is willing to mistreat ministers such as Miss Deborah and Greg after all they have done for ntcc, well, what do you think ntcc will do to YOU?
Angela
The MacDonalds are still oversees but they have a computer. His wife has a facebook page so he must not be too upset with the internet. She's on it all the time. The Reeds are in Guam and he is having to work a secular job. That really goes to show that NTCC doesn't take care of it's missionaries.
I understand Kristofer and I understand the way he feels. I can see plenty of reasons why some people would prefer to move past this blogging. It takes up lots of my personal time. Reading about these NTCC crooks periodically makes me upset which is sometimes quite un-enjoyable, and reading about these NTCC crooks regularly reminds me of a period in my life which I more often than not wish never took place.
Despite the negative results that I've mentioned I firmly plan to continue blogging and exposing the NTCC. I know that the word must get out and halting the blogging train does no more than embolden these NTCC hypocrites. They then boldly tell their church members that "God has won again because Jeff Collins has taken down his blog and the Lord has silenced all these people apposed to Gods program". I started something and I plan to finish it. I practicably see my role in this whole anti-NTCC blogging thing as a "responsibility". That is the way I see it and I don't expect Kristopher to see it the same way.
Jeff
@Vic:
concerning the hop incident:
even though denis and his minions were all holier than thou about the internet, they did use it for their own purposes (like listing houses that they wanted to sell or searching for info)
I am beginning to think that it was just a convenient excuse to split. denis started seeing himself as the "David" to rwd's "Saul".
polaris
Yeah, Polaris, I don't give any credit to the HOP bunch either. I think their opposition to the internet is more pragmatic: they know that information control is paramount. So the leadership will use it for their own purposes, while throwing out such a guilt trip that the membership is fearful of it and therefore won't be reading FACTnet or some blog similar to this one. Denis is in the mold of RW, and will use any useful means to gain his own ends. If that necessitates a little (or a lot) of hypocrisy, well, you've got to crack some eggs to make an omelet, you know, and the rules are for the little people anyway.
Vic described the ntcc thus: the rules are for the little people anyway. LOL Sick, but true in ntcc. And that's the problem.
I will continue to post things but on my blog.biblicaldiscussions.net where I have been talking with some other ministers about- not just NTCC- but mainly about Christianity, and what we believe about God and the Bible, since we have left NTCC. For me, the purpose is because now I want to MOVE ON, and teach people correctly. I am enjoying the fellowship as we encourage each other and learn from one another from our studies of the Bible and history, etc.
God bless you all in your ministries for Jesus to all the "families of the earth" - Gen 12:3
----------------------
Maybe this is not this man's intentions. But this really rubs me the wrong way.
Here look at me. I am posting on my blog. I am enjoying biblical dicussion's. So much more inlightened then us. Those that are here to SAVE souls from ever getting trapped in ntcc in the first place.
Here Look,I am moving on,I am still working for God. Brown nosing a bit. Making sure ntcc knows he is not bitter,angry. Because those of that stay here and continue to blog to toss a lifeline to folks still STUCK in ntcc. We must not love God,or do not have a so called ministry.
Can take away any so called ministry,or attendin any Church. And I am still a Christian. I still love God,and I still follow his word. Actually more now then I have EVER in my entire life!
Just another person that thinks if you blog it holds you back from healing. When it is the complete oppisite. and if I sound testy. So what. I am just tired of some thinking they are holier then though. They DON"T come on here and blog. They want to continue with there live's and forget about anyone else. My military mentality . Do not leave a comrade behind. I do see those still in as those comrade's. We did work with them,side by side for many years. We have no escaped. Why should we not try and help those still under the FOG,brainwash!
I for one,do not get on here to express my anger of being stuck in a cult for way to many years. That is over with,water under the bridge! But I can now use what has happened to me,and have it become useful. Making sure others do not get stuck in the ntcc CULT!
So go on your blog,with your biblical discussion. Those that will help YOU. I will stay here and blog to help OTHERS!
CM
CM wrote...
Maybe this is not this man's intentions. But this really rubs me the wrong way.
Here look at me. I am posting on my blog. I am enjoying biblical discussion's. So much more enlightened then us. Those that are here to SAVE souls from ever getting trapped in ntcc in the first place.
Jeff said...
CM: I wouldn't look at it that way. Kristopher posted some very good info while he was here. Stuff that I hadn't read before. I wish everyone would stop in and tell of some legitimate horror stories even if that means that they just move on. Like I said before, I don't blame the guy a bit. Not everyone has the desire to post on these blogs indefinitely and frankly I understand why they wouldn't.
I'm sure Kristopher's testimonies opened some eyes while he was here and that is a good thing. Kristopher was a great contributor and I glad that he wrote even though he stopped vs never writing at all. I don't care what his reasons were for stopping. Hopefully the guy does go and do something for the Lord because the NTCC certainly isn't.
Jeff
ntcc castigates all who enter and abide it's insidious self-serving manifestos. Do this. Don't do that. And tomorrow what you couldn't do today you may do if you beg The Man to allow you:
Pleez Massuh, don't whup me if I wanna take my missus out to McDonald's. It's our ten yeah annuvusary, Suh. Oh, thank ya kind Suh. No, Suh, we won' be havin' any babies, Gots dat taken care of Suh. Yes Suh. Wouldn't wanna hinduh the work of da Lor' Suh. Gableshya Massuh...
How clumsy of me, I meant to say ntcc CASTRATES all ... Boy, if the Doctors attending ntcc males were as clumsy as I, that would lead to true castration in true ntcc style.
What? You didn't get a vasectomy?
40 lashes save one...
Dat be 39, Massuh? Yes Suh. Right away Suh. Suh, it wuld be a priviluge Suh if ya wuld whup me Yoself. Thank ya Massuh. I be by right qwik to shine ya shoes Massuh. An my missus, she be by direckly to scrub yo Missus' floor, Massuh. Sho is a priviluge taken care of duh man of Gawd, Massuh.
Sassy
BOG OF BLOGS: IF YOU WRITE IT, PEOPLE WILL READ--AND HOPEFULLY LEAVE ntcc OR MAYBE JUST AVOID THE WHOLE ntcc CULT TO BEGIN WITH...Sassy Frass
If we kwit we kould be unKilleen but unKshunned. ;-O <<>> :-)
coming here via way of Jeff Collins blog. I am not going to read through all the comments. But I noticed the Devonshirs were mentioned. They were my pastors for a while in NTCC. They are now in the phillippines and they have a son who I believe is approaching 2 years old? or was it 3? Anyways Devonshire had his vasectomy reversed so Sister D could have a child which she wanted very badly. I know way back when they left they were supposed to be there for 4 years and I am not sure how long they have been there. I think 3 years..I left NTCC in sept 2005 and they left for the phillippines in August of 2005 if I remember right.
I am so sorry you have had to go through that. I just pray that your experience in NTCC doesn't make you bitter towards God. I have seen so many good people leave NTCC and their lives go downhill and wow...and I have seen a lot who have done well. But there are so many people that suffered so much mental abuse that when they got away from it they lost their minds and there is no one to blame but RWD.
Kristopher said...
I am just trying to contribute a suggestion that we don't let this destroy ourselves spiritually, by just becoming hateful.
Jeff said...
Kristopher: With your statement, I think you misunderstand how many of us feel and you may even misinterpret the why you feel. Jesus hated did he not? Look what Jesus said:
Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
Jesus absolutely hated their deeds and I absolutely hate the deeds of the NTCC leaders and their constituents. Did God quote become "hateful" when he made provisions to have an extremely long Bible written which often served to do no more than highlight the evil deeds of people that God judged? Why did God want something written about Jezebel or Ahab? Had God become hateful? Why did God want it written that Jezebel had been thrown from a building and eaten by dogs? Had God become hateful? Are we hateful because we write about the NTCC Jezebels and Ahabs? God certainly hated their deeds and I certainly hate the deeds of the NTCC and I have no problem or moral reservation with saying it.
The Bible was written over the period of thousands of years and we will be lucky to continue writing about the NTCC for tens of years. If we've become hateful because we've written about the religious, hypocritical NTCC for a few years then wouldn't God have become really hateful because he had the Bible written which chronicles the deeds of religious hypocrites over the period of millenniums? I don't think so. I absolutely hate the way that RWD, Olson, Wright, Kekel, Gesang, Mayers, Oberhauser and other NTCC vipers have treated people. I used the word vipers because that is what Christ called the religious folks who's deeds he hated.
Do you see what I'm saying Kristoper? It's not about gossiping or hating because if it was the whole Bible could be referred to as a bunch of hate or gossip. God let folks know about deeds that he hated and we are letting folks know about the deeds that we hate and once again I absolutely "HATE" the deeds of these NTCC vipers AKA crooks as I like to say.
Jeff
Kristofer said...
I just meant I was moving on, which I am thinking is the intent for us to post on here: to help people who have left NTCC to "move on" from them and go on with their lives
Jeff said...
That is not my intent at all Kristofer. I'm doing anything but moving on. I am daily doing my best to exposes these NTCC crooks for their deeds that I hate. Like I said before; I understand why some folks would want to move on and I understand why you want to move on. Understand this.
If God would have just moved on with Adam in the Garden and stopped the Bible right there, then you would have no Bible and or stories to read about concerning the deeds that God "hates". There are whole entire books in the Bible that talk continually about the deeds that God hates and for what ever reason God decided not to "move on" when Genesis was finished. People "need" to know about the NTCC and someone's got to do it and I plan to continue being that someone. That is love Kristofer, not hate. I don't want people to get caught up in the same NTCC garbage that I and many other did, so guess what? Guys like Vic (who has been doing this longer than myself) and I continue to expose these NTCC hypocrites year after year and it appears as though we intent to continue to do so. I understand you Kristofer and I respect you but I won't be moving on. Expose, expose, expose.
Jeff
Stay out of spite. Be a thorn in ntcc side. As long as we are around. they don't have total freedom eo be as destructive as they would like.
It was not until HOP really exposed them. Did changes occur. Mike K. had to come out of the closet on his motorcycle's,bluegrass festivals,his kids playing football. As if he is trying to avoid the appearance of evil. All he has done is put his own brother or sister into a battle. Stay and suck up the lie's or jump ship. And leave what you thought was directed by God. Which is really a big fat lie! They are out for your money. Make it look Godly,we love you. But leave and we will stab you in the back. So fast,you might not even get turned around for the stabbing to begin!!!
This is healing for some of us. venting is helpful. Getting it out of your head. So your not mumbling,or getting so angry your fuming. I don't think comparing a homeless man to us that vent and share out true stories is a good comparision.
Because that is what ntcc thinks will happen to anyone that leave there little community. We will go crazy,God will leave us,become reprobate's. living off the streets,stark raving mad lunatic has always been there predictions for us exntccer's.
So many of us have shared our true life stories. That is just not true. The complete Opposite is what happens! God wants folks to leave ntcc. You leave and watch how blessed you will be. Not just in fianaces,but in your health,quality of life!!
CM
MOVE ON--ntcc CULT CODE LANGUAGE FOR TURN A BLIND EYE AND LEAVE US ALONE.
CALL TO WORLD MISSIONS--SUPER SPIRITUAL CULT JARGON FOR IGNORE OUR SIN AND GO AWAY.
I AM CONCERNED FOR YOU--CULT JARGON FOR I SCR*WED YOU, LET ME LIE AND SAY I LOVE YOU BUT I CAN'T COZ I DON'T SO I AM CONCERNED FOR YOU.
THE DEVIL CAN TAKE POSSESSION--CULT CODE LANGUAGE TO SOW A SEED OF FEAR
BUT IF I CAST OUT DEVILS BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, THEN THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS COME UNTO YOU.--MATT.12V28
OR ELSE HOW CAN ONE ENTER INTO A STRONG MAN'S HOUSE, AND SPOIL HIS GOODS, EXCEPT HE FIRST BIND THE STRONGMAN? AND THEN HE WILL SPOIL HIS HOUSE.--MATT. 12V29
THE DEVIL CAN NOT POSSES WHAT JESUS OWNS AND THE HOLY GHOST GUARDS!! satan IS DEFEATED!
Sounds to me like Kristofer is afraid. verna loves to say things to sow fear into people. kekel, davis... they are fear mongerers. They use satan's tool of fear to stop people from speaking the truth.
When the seed of fear doesn't work, they move on to other techniques like oh say physically throwing people out. I wonder if Kristofer fasted and prayed before he made this decision. It seems double minded that he said he was moving on but has come back and is now using ntcc rhetoric like insanity, angry, etc. to basically say if you stay and blog you won't move on and be spiritual and do world missions like I am. Pride. It sounds bad.
Kristofer was doing a good job exposing ntcc. Sounds like they got in his head though. If you tell the truth about ntcc, you will end up on a curb arguing with yourself Kristofer. Fear.
Maybe God says if you don't tell the truth about ntcc you will be guilty of not sounding the alarm and guilty of the blood of those who perish because you did not sound the alarm.
Fear God. Not man. And especially not a woman. And especially not some old hag, er, uh, nag, like verna.
WHILE HE YET TALKED TO THE PEOPLE, BEHOLD, 'HIS' MOTHER AND HIS BRETHREN STOOD WITHOUT, DESIRING TO SPEAK WITH HIM.
THEN ONE SAID UNTO HIM, BEHOLD, THY MOTHER AND THY BRETHREN STAND WITHOUT, DESIRING TO SPEAK WITH THEE.
BUT HE ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO HIM THAT TOLD HIM, WHO IS MY MOTHER? AND WHO ARE MY BRETHREN?
AND HE STRETCHED FORTH HIS HAND TOWARD HIS DISCIPLES, AND SAID, BEHOLD MY MOTHER AND MY BRETHREN!
FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN, THE SAME IS MY BROTHER, AND SISTER, AND MOTHER.
Matt. 12v46-50
Here the devil sends Christ's own family members to try to silence Him. They were not yet disciples of the Lord. So they wanted to talk with Him to convince Him to stop talking with the people. Christ was having nothing of that! He was in subjection to His parents according to the law of Moses until He became an adult in their culture at the age of 30. No stopping now. (And the interim, 18 years from when He tried to start His ministry at age 12 until He became a man at age 30, WOW. I've wondered about the poor woman bowed over with a bad back for 18 years until Christ loosed her from her infirmity...) But now that Christ is a man, He won't be silenced. Neither will we.
SPEAK!!! SILENCE KILLS. ntcc WAS SUCCESSFUL FOR SO LONG BECAUSE NOBODY TALKED ABOUT THE RAMPANT ABUSES GOING ON IN ntcc.
When little boys who were molested by Catholic priests became men and realized they had a voice, they got together and sued the Catholic church for hiding the perverts and moving them from one church to another allowing more kids to be molested.
ntcc has been doing the same thing hiding those who abuse kids and other violations.
They should be sued.
Silence kills.
Speak out.
There is a reason God gave YOU a voice. YOUR STORY MATTERS. DON'T LET ntcc ABUSE ONE MORE UNSUSPECTING SOUL. FOREWARNED IS FOREARMED. BUT WITHOUT PRIOR KNOWLEDGE, SOULS GET TRAPPED, JUST LIKE YOU DID.
DON'T LET ntcc RUIN ONE MORE LIFE.
SPEAK. BE HEARD. STAND UP FOR JESUS. LET PEOPLE KNOW ntcc DOES NOT REPRESENT CHRIST. THEY ARE ENEMIES OF THE CROSS. THEY ARE THE ONES WHO NEED TO FEAR.
Angela
The Devonshires are in St. Louis, Missouri now :)
Anonymous said...
I wonder if Kristofer fasted and prayed before he made this decision. It seems double minded that he said he was moving on but has come back and is now using ntcc rhetoric like insanity, angry, etc. to basically say if you stay and blog you won't move on and be spiritual and do world missions like I am.
Jeff said...
I'm going to take up for Kristopher again. I don't blame him for wanting to move on. If you want to know the truth about the matter, doing all this blogging can get old. The only reason that I keep doing it is because too many who start quit and I think someone needs to keep carrying the torch. When Tracy took down her blog, the one I created was about the only one left that was active.
With the NTCC leadership being as crooked as they are it would be a travesty if this type of exposure stopped for any period of time. The way I see it the NTCC has done too much damage to the lives of too many people for me to stop telling about their crooked ways. Having said that it does not mean that I expect anyone else to continue dedicating nearly as much time as I do if any. I understand Kristofer totally. Yeah he came across as a little self righteous but he recognized that and tried to set the record straight. I'm glad the dude posted as long as he did and what he posted had more substance than a lot of what I've read for quite a while. Please understand why I feel the need to take up for the guy and I'd be fake if I didn't because it's really the way I feel.
Jeff
I am glad Kris is attacking NTCC from a different direction. I don't know about you guys, but I was mad about the spiritual retardation NTCC subjected us to. When I left NTCC to go to another "Compromise Church"...I felt cheated. They were totally financially accountable, and preached the WHOLE BIBLE.
I hated when you asked asked the Pastor a question about the Bible, you received some lukewarm scriptural answer. There was a spiritual dummbing down in effect.
My biggest pet peeve was when you asked them about baptismal services, communion services, or double standards(like Tonya working) the Pastor gave you an answer that was beyond lame.
I hated hearing lies like "The thief on the cross went to Hell"(in others words Jesus lied).
Another one I hated hearing distorted"
"And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and DAUGTHERS(notice this plural in the scripture) will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions." Oh well women on have spiritual leadership(female ministers) when there are no men present...only in special situations. Ladies dumb yourself down and only talk about coupons and weight loss.
Anon!
Immediately after leaving ntcc I visited my mom's church-- which was a big Baptist church. When I walked in they gave us a brochure, and there on the back was full disclosure of how much money they made per year ($18 million), and where it all went!! I thought-- NO WAY Ntcc would publish that. It's all a big secret. Nobody knows where all the money goes, or all the World Mission pledges from conference. And if you ask you WILL be blacklisted as a troublemaker.
Today is the one month anniversary date for this blog. It has been up for thirty days and there are close to 6,000 hits on the counter... Almost 200 hits a day for a new blog. I doubt anything ntcc offers receives that much attention. They are so phony. I know there are some good people in ntcc. But once again I ask why are they still in ntcc? Perhaps they haven't yet seen these blogs by Miss Deborah and Greg, Jeff, factnet, ntccXposed, etc. Perhaps prayer. A stranger with some printed story from these blogs asking their local ntcc minister what he thinks... You know, God can use the smallest thing to free someone.
Angela
Deb, I remember when your ex, told us about how you were so sick when you were in the PI and that you had contracted this kind of sickness, I guess you didn't sanitize well a head of cabbage or something like that and you got very sick, I remember him sounding so somber when he told us this story.
I remember all the ladies that would come from being in a third world country and they all came looking soo old looking. ms olson said that she came back with practically no hair and upon returning she pleaded with rwd to believe her thatshe had not cut her hair.
Semento was another one that came with a cane, couldn't even walk.
so on and so forth.
xo
I know I posted a comment. Not sure if it got lost in the shuffle I am not seeing it.
CM
MMMM.Jeff why do you feel the need to defend Kris in the first place?
ok.. because I am resourceful. I found out the Devonshires recently moved back to the U.S. and our pastoring in St. Louis.
And according to what I read they were in the phillippines for 4 1/2 years.
This info is just being posted for those who are curious. Since they were mentioned at some point.
CM, what was the topic of your (missing?) comment?--Ange
Ok.. I got to say this.
Expose NTCC for all it's worth. Because if you don't then more people will be hurt. When I was invited to NTCC I actually got online to try and find information about NTCC and couldn't find anything. I'm sure if I would have found some information I wouldn't have ever attended.
That being said... you can expose a cult without appearing to be hateful or spiteful. You can share your experience without sounding vengful.
vengence is for God not us. our job is to expose. Pure and simple. It took me 3 years after leaving NTCC to stop being angry. It took me realizing I was letting my anger control me. And that is not cool at all.
We can expose NTCC without being angry, spiteful and vengful (sorry I am not correcting my spelling because I am tired and I just don't feel like it).
Yes you can get angry about what NTCC did to you and others. But don't let your anger consume you and control you. Anger just like stress does cause medical problems. So keep that in mind.
I am done being angry over what happened to me in NTCC and I understand what others have been through. And when I see their anger in their posts I get it. I understand it. But I am saying you need to move past it before you end up causing more damage to your mental and physical health. You can think about the past without dwelling on it. You have to forgive the hurt even if you don't want to because God said if you can't forgive others he won't forgive you.
I think what that man was saying about moving on was ... some of the people who post need to do something about their constant state of anger. Its not good for you. Of course if you want to have the medical problems, and you want God to hold off on his forgiveness, etc. Then be angery all you want to all the time.
But I think everyone needs to at some point grow up and get over the anger. You can still share your story and help expose NTCC without coming across as a vengeful, spiteful, hateful person.
Hate NTCC all you want. Just don't let that hate control you. Don't let the anger control you either.
We all know we can't get those years back that we lost to NTCC. I have been through worse things then what NTCC did to me. No amount of anger or hate is going to get them back.
Ever stop to think that some of the people from NTCC who read these blogs that are in the process of leaving or are considering it might think when they read some of the posts? I know some of them right away will see some posts as angry and hateful and spiteful and stop reading because the attitude the posts put off scares them away. So seriously... as angry as you might be... maybe some people should have their posts read over by someone else in their home to make sure it doesn't sound like something that would scare someone off before they hit the "publish" button.
And that is my two cents.
I have been super busy lately but in the past I would come to the blogs (minus this one since it is new to me) and read the first 2 sentences of a post and x it out because the angry attitude thaqt came away from it made me not want to read on.
Some of you do need to move away from your anger, hate, spite, vengence, etc. Trust me you can share about your experience without seeming like a bully about it. Bullies are angry and mean because of how they are treated by others rather its family, peers, etc. Do you really want to seem like a bully?
FALSE ACCUSATIONS AND PORNO, SIN THE ntcc WAY--
Vic, I've been re-reading your post dated February 18, 2010 9:54 PM. If I'm reading correctly:
1) rw davis questioned you prior to a church service if you had a modem on your computer.
2) rw davis than said some people view pornography on the internet.
3) You told rw that you had not seen any porn on the internet; but that if a person wanted to he could probably find porn on the internet.
4) rw didn't rebuke you face to face; he did the "concerned pastor" act.
5) rw gets up in the pulpit, points at you, and rebukes people who watch porn on the internet but deny it.
WHAT AN OUTRAGE. HE IS USING THE PULPIT TO SLANDER AND FALSELY ACCUSE YOU AFTER PRETENDING TO TALK TO YOU WHEN HE REALLY ALREADY HAD HIS MIND MADE UP AGAINST YOU.
WHAT A DEVIL.
If anyone is into porn, I would have to say it is kekel. Too many brothers have been run-off from the bible school after kekel purportedly finds a Playboy or Penthouse magazine hidden under their mattress.
Sure.
Who gets the mail in the b.s. office?
And kekel is alone in one room making an inspection and conveniently finds this magazine under somebody's mattress. AS IF!
Like somebody would be so dumb as to hide a magazine under their own mattress in the b.s. dorm.
Seems too convenient to me. Seems more probable that kekel had the magazine and wanted to get rid of it and a true Christian brother at the same time. mikey gets to kill two birds with one stone.
So what if another brother went with kekel to the dorm for inspections? All mikey has to do is command that office pup to go search upstairs while he searches downstairs, stash the mag, then when the office pup arrives, PRESTO-MAGICO-PORNO, OH ME, OH MY, A PORNOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE!
Too convenient.
GUYS, GALS, WATCH YOUR FRIENDS LIVES AND ASK YOURSELF WHO SHOWS THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT. IT SURE AIN'T kekel and davis WITH ALL THEIR HATRED AND VENOM AND USING PEOPLE AND THROWING THEM AWAY AND COVETEOUS OUTLANDISH LIVES OF LUXURY AMIDST POVERTY STRICKEN MINISTERS AND B.S. STUDENTS.
THINK.
PRAY.
ACT.
LEAVE THIS PHONY CULT OF ntcc.
Angela
Or wait. Until it is YOU they do this to.
TRUE PROPHETS VS. PHONY PROPHETS in ntcc LEADERSHIP--
1.
The writer of the book of Hebrews described the lives of prophets thus: ...THEY WANDERED ABOUT IN SHEEPSKINS AND GOATSKINS; BEING DESTITUTE, AFFLICTED, TORMENTED;
2.
James, the Lord's brother, wrote:
DO NOT RICH MEN OPPRESS YOU?
3.
And the Apostle Paul instructed us:
MEN OF CORRUPT MINDS, AND DESTITUTE OF THE TURTH, SUPPOSING THAT GAIN IS GODLINESS; FROM SUCH WITHDRAW THYSELF.
1. You won't see true prophets like that in ntcc.
2. That is all I see in the leadership of ntcc.
3. Note the COMMAND TO LEAVE SUCH PEOPLE. WITHDRAW THYSELF.
LEAVE ntcc!!!
God's Word--
not mine...
Angela
THE VASECTOMY POLICY ACTIVE IN 1993--
Just in case anyone doubts this vasectomy policy, I can testify that Eric Barden got a vasectomy just because of the teachings of rw davis.
Eric believed rw's lies that children hinder the work of God. Strange that rw never considered tanya or grant k. a hinderance to the work of God.
But I guess it's different when it's your kid.
And the rest of you can just go poop on yourselves if you don't like it.
Or if you don't like it, there's the door; but not the one marked "Private"...
Ange
ANGER IS O.K.--JESUS GOT MAD TOO--HE MADE OUR EMOTIONS--
AND WHEN HE HAD LOOKED ROUND ABOUT ON THEM WITH ANGER, BEING GRIEVED FOR THE HARDNESS OF THEIR HEARTS,...
In this portion of scripture taken from Mark, chapter three, we see the Lord Jesus being angered and grieved. First He is grieved, then angered.
I've certainly had my grief caused by ntcc. And I won't deny the anger. I feel the Lord Himself is angered by the ntcc's egregious ways.
I feel that the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of me is the One expressing Himself through my emotions, whether grief or anger.
I don't plan on fighting Him.
I don't like any kind of fighting. Never have. But God calls us to stand for Him. So whether I'm happy or sad or angry, I'm called to stand.
On Tracy's blog I read that the typical recovery time from cults is linked to how long one is in the cult. Someone in for 2 years begins healing after being out for 2 years. I pray God speeds that healing process for all.
But I feel it would be unreasonable for me to demand that someone else go through the healing process in any certain way or timeframe. I think God should be God of that too.
Just my two cents worth.
AngeR
Ange,
My Post was right along the same line's as what you just wrote. About exposing the cult. if we all just Move on. Then others will fall right into there traps like we did.
CM
"If I'm reading correctly:"
You are, except that he didn't actually point to me. This is his style though; he wants to "plow" people to their faces without others knowing what is going on. So his little conversation in the foyer was just setting me up so that I (and only I) would know that he was preaching to me. Then he watches for the response to his headgame to see just how "loyal" its subject is. In my case, not so much; I told Gesang right afterwards that I was still glad I had a modem, which declaration undoubtedly reached the ears of RW.
Guess I fluked that test. They ran me off within months.
"Someone in for 2 years begins healing after being out for 2 years."
Great--I'm on schedule to begin healing next year! NTCCers--don't hesitate; the sooner you leave, the sooner your healing can begin.
Sister Shunk:
I was wondering if you could please, and I know that you are an extremely busy lady, but maybe write another topic in your blog.
I would suggest about how it was that you ended up doing servicemen's work and what is required of you when you join this kind of work. Do you have to sing anything? Like not having kids?
The reason is that you were my one of the many pastor's wife I had and I knew of all the sacrifices that you all made for giving us a home away from home.
I salute all these people that are really the truly pioneers of ntcc.
If it wasn't for you guys and the rest, where would this organization be?
In other words, you guys have made nttc what it is now.
Without you, they wouldn't have a bible school or anything but still be a small org., because I don't see the kekels or the johnsons, or the others going out and start churches across the seas! Risking their lives and their family and luxuries to go out and start something out of nothing.
Please accept my shout out to you ma'am. Blessings to you and your husband.
apw
Anger is ok. What I am saying is ... a lot of people who are still in NTCC or have recently left are still half scared out of their whits and are lost and scared. When they see someone flaming hot angry coming at them they run away. When they are looking for help the anger ends up scaring them off. Do you get what I am saying?
Me? I understand completely why people are angry. I just also understand that the anger scares those who are hurt and scared to death and are lost away.
If you really think about it ...say your stranded and scared to death and you don't know what to do? Can't get a hold of anyone. No one is answering their phones, etc. And someone comes along and starts yelling and screaming at you. Your gonna be even more scared and want to run away. A lot of people who are in NTCC have spent years being that scared lost person and now they are thinking of leaving and they are even more scared. And so they start searching out information. They find tons of great information either from exntccers or from other sources. Or they happen upon the person who yes they want to help those who left and that is very understandable but that person is still very angry and it shows in their posts. That person who is scared and looking for a way out isn't going to want to hang around. They are going to be scared off. Just like trying to get a stray animal to stick around so you can tame it. If you are loud and yelling, etc. Is that animal going to ever let you near it? No. Same with people. THey want help they don't want to deal with the anger. I know I didn't. I was mad when I left NTCC that I let myself fall for their crap when I was raised in Church and saved at a young age. I should have known better. I joined a group.. it helped but I couldn't stand how hateful the people were. SO I left. I wanted help. I didn't want to hear, see or feel the hate. I was on factnet for a while. But I started getting caught up in the hateful attitude that some people had and I realized it wasn't helping me heal to remain angry like that. It also chased me away. It still does. Even to this day. If i start to read a blog post about NTCC and the person is visibly being hateful, angry and mean. I have to quit reading. I just don't like the feeling it gives me.
And I am not trying to be bossy but seriously there have been people that have been out of NTCC way longer than I have and they are still angry and hateful. Holding grudges. My husband is good at holding Grudges. But seriously... it is time for some people to get over the anger and the grudges or your never going to heal. You can still share your story. But if you want more people (not you Deborah) to stick around and get help pre-leaving NTCC and after.. you need to use tact and think about what those people might be feeling. And how you word things might seem as violent and angry which is what they had to deal with the entire time they were in NTCC from RWD ETC. And I know they sure don't want to deal with it when they leave. I know a lot of them are scared half to death and an angry person sure isn't going to get them to stick around.
Even animals will run from an angry person. Only cornered animals attack and even then they only attack because they are scared half to death.
Hey deb. Any chance you got a new blog to start. A new thread. These one's are getting quite large.
CM
Whatever.
Idaho Ange,
i appreciate your opinion, but could you lighten up on the lectures? you really have no right to tell these people how to respond to these lying thieves who have in some cases potentially wasted and ruined there lives.
Use a Bible verse and get to the point!
And I am not trying to be bossy but seriously there have been people that have been out of NTCC way longer than I have and they are still angry and hateful. Holding grudges
Your point is well taken, and understood. Thank you for your concern, and input....but with that being said a lot of people may still be holding anger towards NTCC because they have put more into it, and on their way out have lost more!
1. Do you still have your family? Many do not!
2. Were you financially ruined? Many were!
3. Have you had an opportunity to start over with little or no repercussions? Many have not!
You see Angie, anger can be a very productive, and creative emotion if administered correctly. Do not mistake passion for anger, and even with that being said, many a power has been overthrown by the anger of the disgruntled mob.
I have more respect for the angry individual who will do something, then the passive individual who will do nothing!
I personally am smart enough to seperate the flakes from the individuals who want to vent the wrongs done to them. Healing is different for all of us, and it may take years for some people to move forward, but until then I say let them rant!!!
People are going to leave NTCC regardless, just by virtue of who they are. People will get their cups full, and eventually begin to mature and get out of that mess. The folks that post on these blogs are simply sounding boards, that affirm peoples true convictions and that is, something is not right with NTCC. People have left that group for decades, and they will always leave. Sure they will retain maybe 1%, but the otherr 99% will move on to bigger and better things........it's just a matter of time. The one's that are their now; in 5 years, 10 years will be gone, and you'll see them posting on a blog somewhere.
Our job is to be passionate and angry, and convincing enough that NTCC has a hard time recruiting new people. People will ignore the passive man, but they will listen to the man that grabs his bull horn and shouts for all to hear!
So please understand that people may vent for many years....they have a right! It's like I tell the people that are in NTCC that I work with...."I will say whatever I want about your church, your pastor, and anything affiliated with it!" WHY? Because I spent 13 years of my life and I have a right to say what I want!
GOOD NIGHT!
Former Graham Lay Pastor
YEAH!
Anger of the mob caused the Russian Revolution:
Anger of the mob swept Mao Zedong into power in China:
Anger of the mob swept Fidel Castro into power in Cuba;
Chavez in Venezuela benefits from mob anger!
OH, Don't forget that the Anger of the Mob cried: "CRUCIFY HIM! CRUCIFY HIM! GIVE US BARABBAS AND CRUFICY THIS JESUS!"
POWER TO THE PEOPLE!
The anger of the oppressed also led to the founding of the United States and the dismantling of the Berlin Wall. Properly directed anger can be quite constructive.
It is interesting that RW takes the position that all anger is sin, since he demonstates his anger more frequently and forcefully than most. Well, God is angry with the wicked every day, and anyone who isn't angry about the exploitation of sincere believers is lukewarm at best.
Anger is a real motivator; hopefully many of the folks in the org will get angry enough about the shenanigans of these "leaders" that they will take constructive action and shake the dust from their feet as they remove themselves from the spiritually toxic environment that is NTCC.
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