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| The more he lies, the farther away J. C. gets. |
Where to begin?
The other day my Mom and I were talking about how we came in contact with the people from NTCC. I mentioned some things to her about something that took place in '73 or '74, while my sister was in Bible School. My Mom began telling me about some men which came from St Louis, Missouri to Pueblo, Colorado (our then church’s headquarters...First Spanish Church of God in Christ). These men were friends with Bob Patterson (Penny Hampton Duran's father). Also, the school (Mid-Western Bible Institute) dean at the time was a man named Ruben Herrera. Ruben had family that attended the church in Pueblo, Co.
NTCC was known as “Mid-Western Bible Institute” back then. They told our leaders, "Let your young people come to our Bible School (MBI) and we'll teach them. We'll make preachers and teachers out of them so they can return, and help your churches grow". Well, that was not to be, because once we arrived there, after a while it was put into our heads we would not be welcomed back home. Using the scripture (paraphrasing) "a prophet is without honor except in his own country".
After I had been there for a year I had wanted to return, because I had promised my father I would come back to help him. My sister told RW, and guess what the message was the next time we had church? Yep, you got it. So all the young people that came out of our churches in Califirnia and Colorado were beguiled and guilted into becoming workers for RW's church. Do you think our leaders were happy campers? My Dad was furious when he found out we weren't coming home. For many years he had harbored this against NTCC, until the Lord spoke to him, and he got peace. He was then able to let it go. NTCC had not kept their word, and of course I was told I could break this promise because of this scripture. This haunted me for many years until I asked my father to forgive me.
After 32 years I am fulfilling my vow to Mom and Dad, and am helping her in her ministry.
When I first arrived at school I found John and Becky living so poor. I cried when I found out she didn't have groceries, and they were behind in their rent. Many other students were living in the same manner. John was working for the day school and so was Becky. Yet, there wasn't enough money coming in to pay these men. I don't know if the ladies were paid for their work. John and Becky were pastoring in North St. Louis, they couldn't even buy gas at times.
I know it was the Lord that put it in people's hearts to give them an offering every so often. I called home and borrowed money from my Mom till I got a job, which was the next day. I helped support John and Becky, giving them grocery and gas money during my time there. I took them out to eat when they'd come to Forest Ave. I've always watched out for them. Over the years (at Conferences, when they came in from Panama), Greg and I have given them thousands of dollars, in additon to paying for most of their meals at conference, and buying them clothing.
Deborah
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ReplyDeleteYes, Deb we all had the first impression that we were going to learn the Word and return to our lives. But once in they would not let us "go". We would "burn in hell" if we ever left RW's ministry, and did not work only for him forever. Unfortunately at the time, we did not know that there were thousands of Churches/ groups exactly like his! "Holiness" defined in such a way as to be separatists from the rest of the body of Christ.
ReplyDeleteSo much pain from such a small man.
ReplyDeleteKinda like hitler.
[Sad smile and shake of the head.]
Deb: That's a terrible story. I'm hopeful that Becky will eventually see the NTCC for what it is. I'm sorry nevertheless. You just keep loving her as I'm sure you've always done. You know as well as anyone the type of grip the NTCC can get on someone's life. I also know quite well. You may be getting some more messages to publish because I announced the existence of this blog on the one I moderate. I truly believe what you are doing here is necessary because people need to know the NTCC for what it really is.
ReplyDeleteIt has done much damage to many families and many lives and your story is no exception.
There was a spelling and a grammar error in the message that I posted last night so I deleted it and re-posted this one. Because I'm also a Google blogger I have delete capabilities but only for my own messages. double-D taught me that one.
Sincerely and respectfully,
Jeffrey Collins
Deborah,
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing. I remember you from Hawaii and always enjoyed your kind spirit.
Hi Deborah.I was under John and Becky back in Lakewood in 94. In fact John was the one that prompted me to attend Bible College. While there I had an opportunity to meet your mom, and dad, and have never forgotten how wonderful people they were. In fact John had asked your dad to come up to the pulpit one night and testify, and I think your dad misunderstood, and he came up started testifying, and then opened his Bible and preached the Sunday Morning Service. I still remember the message after 15 years it was about the Olive tree in the book of Judges. They were very kind people for the time that I had to know them.
ReplyDeleteIt's sad to see John and Becky's loyalty to NTCC after all these years. I really do not believe that RWD even appreciates them one bit. That is why, in my opinion that John always gets stuck down in Panama. I remember fellowshipping with Mike Kekel at his house one time, and I began toshare my experiences about John and Becky, and my time at Lakewood. Then Kekel made some off the wall comment about John, and then just let it lie. I remember thinking to myself right after Mike made his comment that NTCC has its favorites,and John isn't one of them. I used to think it was wrong that men like John could devote so much of his life to NTCC, and then you would walk through the back door of Graham, and see someone like Pellicia standing there greeting people, or Malone.....I thought that was wrong.
I will say I am looking forward to your commentaries of all of the years in NTCC. Please spare not the rod, for we are all sure that if it was RWD he wouldn't!
Sincerely;
Former Lay Pastor
Former Lay Pastor wrote...
ReplyDeleteI remember fellow-shipping with Mike Kekel at his house one time, and I began to share my experiences about John and Becky, and my time at Lakewood. Then Kekel made some off the wall comment about John, and then just let it lie. I remember thinking to myself right after Mike made his comment that NTCC has its favorites,and John isn't one of them.
Jeff wrote...
That's the way the NTCC leadership operates. They, (RWD and Kekel clearly have their favorites. The most ironic part of that fact is that Denis was one of RWD's favorites right before Denis double crossed him. RWD's standard for judging character is so misguided because of his quest for money. That is exactly why he liked Denis so much. Denis was just like him and RWD was blinded by Denis's shallow level of success and many people are blinded by RWD deception as well.
As long as you are a minister who has money and numbers in church, RWD thinks you are the greatest; PERIOD, POINT BLANK, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Some of the most wicked and corrupt people on earth have money. RWD's focus on teaching always seemed to somehow all revolve around finances and money. His phony advanced theology classes revolved around the accumulation of finances as well as has been testified to by many people. The whole thing is absurd Former Lay Pastor and I'm sure that you hit the nail on the head with John and Becky. It's such a shame because Deborah should mean much more to Becky than RWD and the corrupt org ever could.
Believe this; when every corrupt leader in the org has forsaken Becky, Deborah will still be there and you can count on it. RWD understands that. That is why there is so much nepotism in the NTCC. Look who RWD takes care of? It's no mystery; his daughter and son in law. You might as well look out for your own blood because when everyone else has forsaken you, generally your family is still there.
Jeff
I am flabbergasted. My whole belief system is unbalanced and confused due to what I have been through with NTCC.
ReplyDeleteDeborah, for you to remain a Christian and remain grounded in your experience with God through all that...(much more than me), Kudos to you!
I have trust issues due to childhood experiences...adding my experience with NTCC...I'm just not so willing to trust.
I remember spending years terrified of the leadership. At the end...I was angry. Last conference in Graham that we attended 2006 or 7, I looked RW's way...He looked at me, we locked eyes and I stared him down. It was the beginning of taking my personal power back. Always before that, I would look away and feel uncomfortable and confused.
A caged animal slowly becomes aggressive. I guess the same can happen with a Pastor's wife.
Deborah, thank you for your testimony. You were always sweet and loving to me.
Please continue your blog. I thought we had been around a long time but y'all beat us. What a horrible trick he pulled on your parents and their church. God bless you as you continue to serve Him. Never Harm
ReplyDeleteMiss Deborah,
ReplyDeleteI see you as an Abigail (I Sam. 25) in the sense that you have a sweet spirit/heart despite horrific things done to you.
I remember another lady telling me when she and her sister were young there came a time when one was in one school and the other in the school next door.
At recess they would run outside and hold each others' hands through the chainlink fence separating them.
I think you and Becky both love each other. I pray God removes the chainlink fence of ntcc that has imprisoned so many good people from the normal things of life like loving your own family.
God Bless You.
Angela
Deborah,
ReplyDeletei have a relative in ntcc and was reading him your blog because he knows you and admires you. he wanted me to ask if, since you left ntcc have your "holiness" standards changed?
He feels that the answer will justify him in some way
thanks!
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ReplyDeleteTruth coming to light--an excellent antidote to the old NTCC poison. The more information available about this group's sordid history, the better. Read and heed!
ReplyDeleteKristofer said,
ReplyDeleteSometimes Rev. Devonshire would even be waiting up for me when I finally got home and ask me, are you gonna come up and pray, brother Moore? I would routinely fall asleep at the wheel in the mornings on the way to formation, and I even did crash once.
----------------------------
Here is some more to add to this. I was under devonshire as well. But not in OK. In Oceanside,CA. He must have thought since we are Marine's. He was going to push us way past our breaking point.
He did the SAME EXACT thing in Oceanside that he did in OK! I remember being at the home until 2AM fellowshipping. Reality,I was falling asleep.
C Perez got pulled over by the MP's. They thought he was drunk! He flunked the test,from being Dead tired.
K Easly had a few car accidents. From being exhausted!
I did not live in the home. But I know he kept the Marine's up way,way to late. And get up for Formations and work the next day. And perform on the level that we were expected to do!
Devonshire loved his strong coffee. And had coffee being made at ALL hours of the day and night. Why,manpulation! Keep us all dead tired. No way could we think and know this is not right. We are Marine's. We follow orders and ntcc is REALLY good at using that to there advantage. I look back,I switched my alliegance from the Marines to ntcc. I did put down that I was in the Marine's,could not talk about it.
I wonder if devonshire is doing the samething in St. Louis,MO? Is he keeping them up late. prayer meetings at all hours,drinking
coffee at all hours. Or has old age caught up with him!!LOL
Semper FI!
ntcc IS YOUR god IN ntcc--CULT, CULT, CULT!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteAbuses abound in every form in this cult.
Christian is as Christian does!
Kristofer, you have really written some powerful and horrible stuff.
I don't know why but we were so blind in ntcc.
macdonald letting that woman starve herself. Then bragging about it from the pulpit in conference, like, 'Hey, everybody, what a great thing.' How hideous.
But that is how ntcc is.
Semper Fi Marine--in ntcc the borg becomes your god. Even Jesus is pushed off His throne and all other loyalties come a distant second to the ntcc god. That's just how they are. Glad you woke up and no longer drink their strong coffee or kook aid. LOL!
It's almost like he knows he is not a Christian, and he doesn't want to play the part and be a hypocrite, by pretending to be a friendly and loving Christian, but then he jacks everybody else up when he's preaching about all their sins. Sometimes he acts goofy, and kids
ReplyDeleteI had doubted for years that Kekel was a christian. I think if he could, he would get away from NTCC. But unfortunately he is married to Tanya, and for him to leave would be family, and financial ruin. So he decides to just be Davis's "BOY".
Former Lay Pastor
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteKristofer said...
ReplyDeleteReed pointed his cane in my face once, like some mafia boss, telling me to back off another brother. The brother wasn't even in the room. I don't know what I did that was so bad that I needed a cane pointed in my face, like he was gonna pop me with it if I argued. He also cracked me on the head once pretty hard with it. I mistakenly assumed that as he was hovering it over my head that he would just playfully tap me on the head. No such luck. He cracked me, HARD!
Jeff said...
That is way out of line. Someone should have knocked him out. These sorry NTCC ministers have taken their authority way too far. The fact is they have no authority; not given from man, God, or anyone else. It's all self appointed and they only have as much as we allow or have allowed. They have no legal or lawful authority what so ever.
I understand why you refer to those guys with their NTCC title, (it's a habbit) but you give those clowns way more respect then I do. I don't even refer to Reed or any of the rest of them as "reverend". Reed is Reed and Kekel is Kekel and Davis is RWD or Rdub. They rarely ever showed anyone respect other than all this "Yes Sir, No Sir stuff" in an attempt to try and make a false showing of respect, so I see no reason to show them respect. Reed didn't respect you when he put that cane in your face? He treated you like his kid and that is not respect.
There used to be a time that I respected "Ministers of the Gospel" just because of the position they held but not anymore. They are just men like anyone else and they have to earn my respect just like anyone else. I could care less what title they hold. Just like some people think of car salesmen and lawyers, I now think the same of ministers in the same way. Too often crooks. I know they are not all crooks but neither are all car salesmen and lawyers but there is a large percentage each catagory.
The garbage that Reed did should not have been allowed. If one of these sorry NTCC ministers wants to get physical or threaten physical contact either the police should be called or they should be threatened back and if a fight ensues, then the NTCC should have the pants sued right off them. That is what needs to happen. The NTCC could loose everything and I would be fine with it because the testimony that you gave concerning Reed was shocking, but no surprise.
The NTCC is one sorry, abusive, organization.
Jeff
Old Mike Kekel is already trying to run a damage control campaign because of this blog. He posted a threat entitled, "Don't Believe Everything You Read" the very day after I announced that this blog existed. Isn't Mike something. He never ceases to amaze me. Well you can believe what you read here and you can certainly believe what Deb wrote on the cover of this blog.
ReplyDeleteJeff
I suppose it was a "Half Truth" when this serviceman wrote that Reed stuck a cane in his face, hey Kekel? If you had any character at all Kekel you would at a minimum reprimand Reed with at the least a temporary relief of duty. But you don't have any character Mike and as a result, Reed will continue to abuse his authority that he should never have in the first place.
ReplyDeleteJeff
The actions of ntcc ministers is staggering to see. My first pastor shot me with a bb-gun from about 10'-- and laughed like crazy. It hurt like you know what and I had a 6" red spot on my leg for the rest of the day. He enjoyed giving people physical pain, but I won't go into it now.
ReplyDeleteMy second pastor was a little nicer, but he had his moments. Like the time we were praying in the servicemen's home living room, and a car crashed into a sign across the street (probably injuring the people inside), and the pastor told us to ignore it and KEEP PRAYING! Wouldn't Jesus have gone over to make sure they were OK? By the way, that pastor's WIFE slugged me in the gut one time, because I cracked a joke at her. I can't believe I didn't leave right then.
And speaking of tired. Does anyone remember Rev. Castillo killing himself when he drove his car into a bridge pillar? He was evangelizing and by all evidence it looked like he had fell asleep at the wheel.
AXP (Another Ex-Preacher)
Old Mike Kekel is already trying to run a damage control campaign because of this blog. He posted a threat entitled, "Don't Believe Everything You Read" the very day after I announced that this blog existed. Isn't Mike something. He never ceases to amaze me. Well you can believe what you read here and you can certainly believe what Deb wrote on the cover of this blog.
ReplyDeleteJeff, the problem with Kekels posting concerning " don't believe everything you read" is this....
1. Debbie is writing about a time in NTCC before Kekel was even a part of this cult. She has more time on the books then he does!
2. Her testimony is way more credible for the fact that she has been in Serviceman's work, and throughout NTCC, and Kekel has done NOTHING!!!! but hide in Graham his entire "so called" ministry.
3. Just like when an auto mobile accident happens, the testimony of the individuals family holds no weight, for the simple fact, that they are almost assured to agree with the family memeber, because of relation. Of course Kekel is going to defend Davis....HE HAS TO MUCH TO LOSE!!! NTCC is Kekel's financial piggy bank, he doesn't care about right and wrong, he cares only about wealth, and status. And he is going to defend that because that is what pays his bills, and keeps him rich!
4. Kekels blog isn't even popular. It's BORING! It has NO substance! It's all NTCC rhetoric, and even the people that are loyal can see that. That's why the commentaries are so few.... WHAT??? A few "Amen's" and "that's right sir". That's all it is! He really has no support!
5. I believe that Kekel is dealing with scores of individuals right now that are teetering on the fence of indecision! If the church in Graham was so sure that Kekel was telling the truth, and the claims made on this blog, your blog, Tracy's blog, Factnet were not true, his comment box on his blog would be full of support for him, and NTCC......BUT IT IS NOT! Kekel has 74 followers on his blog...that is laughable!!!! I have more friends on Facebook! For such a so called World Wide Organization, don't you think the following would be much more bigger than that? But it is not! And frankly, when the old man (RW) kicks the bucket, that will probably be all that Kekel has left to listen to him........
In His Service
Former Lay Pastor
Before I get on the road, I wanted to add this concerning Kackels blog...(mis-spelling of his name is on purpose)When you stop, and think of the article posted entitled "don't believe everything you read". It makes me wonder how long, and how deep did Mike have to search to find ANYHTING similar to what NTCC is experiencing? I mean, he must of had to search for hours, to find something of this nature, after all, he does claim to be so busy. Listen folks, the thing about these blogs is this....This is the testimony of individuals that have been within NTCC for years if not decades, you simply do not just sit down one day and begin to pull this stuff out of thin air. You would have to collaborate for months to even begin to be this creative, and post facts in such detail, and what individual would even begin to waste that kind of time!!! The reason that so many dates, names, locations, services, etc... is so fluent is for the simple fact, that all of this stuff really happened. How is it that so many people, from so many different NTCC locations, most of us, don't even know each other, can have such detailed testimonies that coincide with one another???? It is because our TESTIMONY IS TRUE!!!! and you KNOW IT!!! Because you have witnessed it yourself!
ReplyDeleteLet me ask you NTCC loyalists something....The Bible claims "that all liars shall have their part in the Lake of Fire" is that a true or false statement? Well what about those that lie to themselves???? Hmmmmmmm? Whether you lie to someone else, or sit there, and read something and lie to yourself, that it is not the truth, is it still not a lie? So are these testimonies truth...or a lie?
Anyway.........just food for thought! Gotta go!
Good news! I received a phone call "today" from an exNTCCer who's family is still with the NTCC. We are talking about a couple who are currently, actively in the NTCC ministry. The family member that I talked to said that their family is not happy with the NTCC leadership and for maybe the first time discussing grievances they have with the NTCC. They've also said that they have lost faith in the NTCC leadership and even though they are still with the NTCC, they are no longer following the leadership but doing their own thing.
ReplyDeleteThat is good news. The person that called me has posted on the blog I moderate for quite some time. I think that is excellent news and folks are starting to see the NTCC for what it really is. These people have been with the NTCC for about 26 years or more. The more old timers that leave the greater effect it will have on the others and the more it will prove to them that you can leave the abusive NTCC without getting cursed.
There is life after the NTCC and I believe that real life starts when you leave the NTCC because what the NTCC is offering is bogus. You can serve God without the NTCC. If you are a pastor, you can build your own church and everything doesn't have to be funneled up to Graham while Mike Kekel and his wife continue to benefit from all your labor. You do all this while you struggle just to stay above hot water and get criticized by RWD because you are not quote "running" enough people in service. I hate that term. It's is like you are taking your dogs out for a morning "run".
Jeff
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ReplyDelete"...get criticized by RWD because you are not quote "running" enough people in service. I hate that term."
ReplyDeleteThey run people all right. Run them ragged.
I think those of you in NTCC should ask yourself-- Why have so many good, godly Christians and ministers bolted from NTCC? We aren't talking about a few, but hundreds (probably thousands over the history of NTCC). I think that speaks volumes. If you are going to work at a company and you see that it has high turnover, unhappy employees, and bad leadership-- that is a company you're not going to want to work for. Well, that is EXACTLY how it is in NTCC. High turnover, unhappy members and bad leadership. Think about it.
ReplyDeleteAXP
Former Lay Pastor,
ReplyDeleteThank you for the kind remarks about my parents. My Dad was a wonderful man who loved God and the ministry. He loved to read, and would spend hours studying in preparing for his Sunday school lesson and Evening message. He was a man truly anointed by God. He was a man of prayer
When my parents came to visit us that year at Lakewood Church, I was living in the girls dorm at the time. I found it very unreasonable that I could not visit my family unless, I asked permission. I was told don't you think there's enough people at (my sister's) the Lakewood Parsonage already? Mind you, I had not seen my parents for 2 years. I visited them in the fall of '92, during this visit my stay was not a joyous one because I had to take care of medical problems before returning to Okinawa that year. When the Ex and I returned to Washinngton in '93, we stopped to stay with my parents in Denver for one day, that visit was not a joyous one either, due to certain circumstances. I just wanting to spend time with my Mom and Dad! It was made out to seem (by Pastor Davis) as though I was imposing on them (we have all heard that before--get a hotel, don’t impose on your family--the few times you may be given permission to visit them). There was plenty of room in that house, isn't that reason why they bought the property? Becky and I loved being around each other, we had a love like Johnathan and David. We were sisters that truly cared about one another. Yet RW always tried to keep us apart. Either spies reported, or the leadership themselves saw my car at my sister's house. Then I would get in trouble. I was told that I was not to visit her. So I aplogized for breaking the rules and said I would not go there unless I was given permission (this was rarely granted, yes I asked). I've always endeavored to be obedient to the rules, though at times found them hard to bare. It wasn't because I was rebellious, I've always searched my heart and asked God to help me stay sweet.
As many know, RW would make fun of my brother-in-law, even in front of others. He's told people John can't preach and he can't talk! So you tell me how many hundreds of G.I.'s were reached under their ministry? This is how they talk about God's anointed vessels? I guess the verse "touch not mine anointed and do my prophets no harm” only refers to the" Board Members".How ironic for Kekel to make remarks about John. He's never started a church from nothing. John's the pioneer of NTCC, he's the one they always call on to go clean up a work or go dig out a work from nothing! RW and JH Olson always try to lift Kekel up before the people. Like he's pioneered so many works, he's always worked under RW or JH Olson and it's been at the Bible School.There's a word for this, it's called "Nepotism". You can't have the daughter and son-in-law pastoring a small church, Let us build up his credentials to make him look good. Ah, will put him as Assistant Pastor to pastor a bunch of bible school students who aren't going anywhere for 2-3 yrs. and when RW is out visiting he's the Pastor. Like he went out and won all the students to the Lord. When is that called "pioneering a work." "The Man" has always there to pick up the pieces if Kekel fails.
God bless,
Deborah Shunk (aka Sis. Blumenthal)
Kristofer,
ReplyDeleteI was saddened to hear your story. I'm sorry you had to go through this, I have seen and witnessed this type of treatment upon others. It's truly shameful. For these men to act like they're better than we are. As christians aren't we are suppose to be servants not lords! Just like the Democrats who make people dependant on them (sorry if you're a Democrat). Our minds were infected with these rules we had to follow. They made the rules, and then when things started getting to messed up from people followed the rules, and too much information about the organizations rules was revealed on line, we were made out to be dummies. They didn't want you getting an answer from Rev. Joe Schmoe, it had to be them. Oh, and they didn't want you asking permission for things when "outsiders" visited, they'd try to brush it off. Because family wondered "why do you have to get permission" even though you "weren't" in Bible School. This was not a “guideline” but man made rules which were to be followed. Try to deviate from the rules and see if you won't get called out on the carpet! But,when things are pounded into your head at every gathering what do you expect!?
It's sad for people to play favorites and many people do get hurt from this. It's always been my mission to seek out the unpopular couple or the person who is dressed humbly and befriend them. I've not changed and I even practice this on my job. You have a friend in me Kristofer it's a pleasure to meet you!
God bless,
Deborah Shunk (aka Sis Blumenthal)
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the plug Bro. I appreciate your concern and words of encouragement. Yes, it's been rough this past year, but I'm thankful I have a great husband, and loving family who have been my strength. I alienated my other siblings for a long time (due to NTCC ‘policy’) and I'm grateful God has given me this time to heal the hurt that I caused them. It's been wonderful being with my Mom, who's one of my strong supporters, and getting to know my sisters again. My brother is moving here to Idaho to help in my Mom's church, and I know God is going to move. Ministers we've never met have come up to us and tell us that God is going to do a great work here in Idaho. A woman told my brother at a funeral in Denver, that God choose him to go to Idaho to do a work. She didn't even know he was coming here. Those of you from NTCC who are reading this I haven't left God, I moved on because I don't believe in all the rules and regulations that had been placed on us. You have seen for yourselves, and question why is it not okay for me to do this, yet bro/sis so-so can do it. The rules change all the time for various people and circumstances. God has something better for us, he didn't place burdens on us. Sin is the burden, not all of this junk that we've had to follow all these years. I have joy in my heart and my steps are lighter, to God be the glory! Jeff say hello to your beautiful wife, I liked her right away the first time I met her.
God bless,
Deborah Shunk (aka Sis. Blumenthal)
double-D,
ReplyDeleteWe sure do go back a long way. = ) I'm so glad that you to moved on. You were there before I was, and endured (I imagine) harder things. When I first got to St. Louis I found it odd that we could not listen to radio preachers. We were told not to listen to radio preachers, and we didn't fellowship with other churches besides the two out-stations in NTCC. It was later realize we were being alienated from other churches only because we were told we didn't want their worldly ways to corrupt us. Also, we had to leave family to follow Christ, and when family is alienated that should sound to-be-headed alarms. But in their case they have their families so you didn't see them sending Tanya or Lorrie far away. They did send Lorrie and her hubby, but they had to return. Mainly, Tanya was always kept close, always has been. Maybe a short separation when they moved to Washington, but her parents weren’t far behind. They often went to St. Louis to see them. Becky hadn't seen my parents one time for 7 yrs because there was no coming home and visiting family when you came to Conference. No wonder my Dad was alarmed at this. He told me (he also said this to my mother), "We were in a cult". Back then I would have said no, but today I say yes Dad I agree with you! All we've done is to line the pockets of the higher up's. Though God has been able to work through us to save souls, aside from all the then hidden things that have gone on.
God bless,
Deborah Shunk (aka Sis. Blumenthal)
Angela,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your kind words. It's my desire to continue to live up to my testimony. I don't want to fail other people, but to just be a blessing.
God bless,
Deborah Shunk (aka Sis. Blumenthal)
Carly,
ReplyDeleteAt this time don't give up, there are some good churches that have great pastors in them. We found some here in Idaho and they're wonderful people. Greg and I have been to some great conferences and fellowships here. Take one day at a time and ask the Lord to place someone in your path that will help you to find healing for your soul. Your foundation is not on a man, but it's on the Lord. He gave you salvation, the preacher is only there to guide you, not place rules on you. Trust in God and he'll put the right people in your path. God is true to his word.
Love you,
Deborah Shunk (aka Sis, Blumenthal)
Deborah said...
ReplyDeleteJeff say hello to your beautiful wife, I liked her right away the first time I met her.
Jeff said...
Thank you. I will. She liked you as well. I'm glad things are going well for you and your husband. I'm happy for you and Greg. I couldn't believe that the NTCC leadership didn't even want you to visit your own Sister. That is so absurd. You are pretty kind with the way you put your words together. I'm not so kind but I certainly don't blame you for being so.
I can't stand the NTCC. To tell a woman that she can't go visit her biological sister is such an abuse of authority that it is literally unbelievable. What makes me that most upset is that "Any" of us put up with that garbage for even one minute. They played on our emotions and our desire to be obedient to the Lord and they capitalized on it. Once again I still find it unreal that they made you ask permission just to go visit your own biological sister who was in the same church that you were. That is a thorough abuse of authority.
RWD, Olson, and Kekel the three biggest control freaks that I've ever met in my entire life and I no longer have even one ounce of respect for any of them. The only reason that I'm glad that I met any of them is because they've taught me exactly what kind of phony religious leaders I should stay away from through out my life.
Jeff
Kristofer asked...
ReplyDeleteSo, if they didn't get their money from the ministry, but invested it, doesn't that mean that they are doing other things besides the ministry, occupying their time to make money in some way that is not directly benefiting the organization? We were all just sold out to NTCC. Everything we did was supposed to be related to it.
Jeff said...
Kristofer: They only tell half the truth if that. RWD spoke of a time that he desired and prayed to become a millionaire. I heard him with my own ears. If he didn't have money at the time it had to come from somewhere and he has been full time all along with the NTCC. I don't know what he gets now and I really don't care but you better believe that initially his money came from the church. Kekel was in the military for crying out loud and he certainly didn't have all the assets that he has now and the money didn't drop from the sky.
Even if they did invest, which I'm sure they did, it was with money that came through the church. That is fine but don't try and insult our intelligence by suggesting otherwise. The fact is that RWD and Kekel have disproportionately built a financial empire while watching their church members and minsters struggle way below the poverty level because RWD set up the system that way. Bro. Solomon in Dothan AL has been essentially broke ever since I've known him.
He has always been struggling. The church in Graham shouldn't accept one dime from that brother. Everything he gets should stay in his church but greedy Kekel and RWD don't have a problem with the 40% or 60% that he no doubt puts into an account that Graham controls. Too many ministers have explained to me that this is how it works with the money and I have no reason to doubt that it is any different with Solomon. He is just one example and there are many others.
People in the NTCC ask, "Why am I broke"? "I pay my tithes and I give in the offering and I serve the Lord". Then RWD says, "there must be sin in your life and that is why God won't bless you".
So I'm supposed to believe that Kekel and RWD are the only ones in the NTCC who've not sinned and they are the only ones who do God's will and that is why they are rolling in dough? What am I Sammy the Sausage Head or Willie Nillie? I'd have to be Freddy Foo-Foo to believe that garbage.
Face it, the NTCC is a family run corporation and like any other corporation the owners get all they decide to allot to themselves and invest it as they please. Have the NTCC leadership show you their corporate resolution and see who's names are on it as officers. Of course the answer would come as no surprise and it shouldn't. If you ever want to get ahead then you need to leave RWD corporation and start your own and it is just that simple. If you don't mind laboring for someone else while having a substantial amount of your hard earned money wind up supporting Grant Kekels interests then just continue to slave for the NTCC masters and that is exactly what you will get.
As for me, I'm taking care of "MY" family, not Kekels, thank you. My little boy who I dearly love has nice things just like Grant Kekel, and he will play sports just like Grant Kekel, and no sorry, double stand NTCC pastor will try and lay a guilt trip on me when I go to watch his game on a Thursday thank you.
Just like the story of Robin Hood. The evil rich in the NTCC bleed the poor and the poor stay poor until folks fight back and the only way the fight the evil NTCC leadership is to simply leave.
Jeff
WOW! Just listening to what Deborah has to say in response to all of these people makes me want to go down to Idaho, and be in her church! You can tell by just reading her responses that she cares about people, and truly loves God! Unlike Kekels antagonizing hate speech that he spews towards all that leaves his cult.
ReplyDeleteDeborah by just reading the encouraging words that you have written makes me want to go to church, and pick up my Bible and start looking to God again, something that I have not wanted to do after leaving NTCC.
Please continue with your blog.....Itis definately a breath of fresh air!
ust like the story of Robin Hood. The evil rich in the NTCC bleed the poor and the poor stay poor until folks fight back and the only way the fight the evil NTCC leadership is to simply leave.
ReplyDeleteOr to post their testimonies on a blog such as this....When you leave they simply smear your name, and people believe it! But when you, and I and countless others post our testimony on a blog such as this, that is what makes the Leadership of NTCC run for cover. Because others read it (and don't think that they don't) and they begin to realize that they are not the only ones, that see the evil in NTCC, or the double standards. Do not think for a second that this blog does not make MCK or RWD lose sleep.....they hate these blogs!
Hey Everybody....it's Saturday soul winning. So dress up nice and warm, take your kids to the babysitters, go out walking in the rain, getting sick, and be back in time for Saturday Night Service. Oh and don't forget to pick up your contacts for the 930 Sunday Morning Service. That means out of bed at 700 get your family ready, and drive all the way to Tacoma to find the people still asleep!
ReplyDeleteI remember in the lay pastor meetings Kekel telling all of the Lay Pastors to send the "good" soul winners, the one's that brought people to church, to the good areas (nice homes, safe neighborhoods, big apartment complexes etc....) and to send all of the "DUDS" to the bad areas (rural areas, long walking distances, "casual soul winning").
So if you have ever wondered why your Lay Pastor hands you a map, and the entire area consists of 2-3 mobile homes, that you have to drive to, and you never get anything remotely congested, it is because Kekel views you as a DUD! And your Lay Pastor is doing what he has been instructed to do.
Question: I wonder how much of a DUD you are, when you are paying your tithe, and your family is barely scraping by, your children, can't even enjoy their childhood, but Kekel is at home, while YOU are soul winning, Tanya has showed up late to choir practice AGAIN, you never get time with your family because you are to busy soul winning, and the Kekels are reaping the financial benefits of your tithe?
DUDS???? That is what Kekel thinks of you, when you bring no one to church! Has Tanya ever brought anyone to church? Does she even pray with people at the altar? Does she even do anything????? Anyway off to run errands, and ENJOY my day off from work..............
In His Service;
Former Lay Pastor
Anonymous said..."Deborah, i have a relative in ntcc and was reading him your blog because he knows you and admires you. he wanted me to ask if, since you left ntcc have your "holiness" standards changed? He feels that the answer will justify him in some way thanks!"
ReplyDeleteDeborah said...Thanks for your question. My 'holiness standards' have not changed from what is currently allowed, taught, promoted, and practiced by the leadership of NTCC.
God Bless,
Deborah Shunk (aka Sister Blumenthal)
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ReplyDeleteKristofer said...
ReplyDeleteI wear pants, and not shorts in public. I think I have worn shorts outside for a few minutes one time in the last 14 years. I felt convicted for it, and haven't done it since. It is a personal choice that I made after reviewing the scriptures. It is one of the things that I still do that I do admit I learned from NTCC, and I agree with.
Jeff said...
Well you may want to call Mike Kekel because he doesn't agree with it and he has allowed his son to wear shorts for quite some time. I think you may be a little mistaken when assuming that it is an NTCC standard for men not to wear shorts. If Kekel is in charge (which he is), and he allows shorts to be worn by his son (which he admittedly has), then it is not a standard.
Kekel wrote that it was ok for Grant to wear shorts playing basketball because the shorts are about knee length and he saw no difference between knee length shorts on a man and knee length skirts on a woman. Frankly, even though that is just another NTCC double standard, I agree with Kekel on that determination.
There is no reason, biblical or otherwise that a man cannot lawfully wear shorts. Guys in the military who live in serviceman's homes wear short all the time because they have to during PT. What are they going to do? Go to hell if the rapture takes place while they are running PT wearing shorts? Is the NTCC leadership allowing them to compromise for an hour every other day while they run PT in shorts? Or just maybe God will make an exception to his own standards for an hour every other day while the brothers run PT? I don't think so and I don't think it is a sin to wear shorts and Mike Kekel certainly doesn't think so either even though he allows his preachers to preach and teach against wearing shorts any time they want to.
Can you spell "double standard".
What I've written makes perfect sense which is a practice that I've regularly incorporated since I left the NTCC. In other words I think for myself without factoring in the warped opinions generated by the NTCC leadership.
Jeff
FORE-WARNED IS FORE-ARMED
ReplyDeleteKristofer wrote:
I really believe that a man should protect his wife from anybody who undermines the authority of her husband. And the husband is SUPPOSED to protect his wife.--Kristofer
Ange says,
I really like that.
And it's not o.k. to let them abuse you. You deserve better.
You're a child of the king, a king and priest to God. You don't have to be proud. But you can respect yourself; and not let others abuse you. You realized that and left.
GOOD JOB!
Angela
P.S. I'm glad you post and share your stories and experiences. The more people who do that, the better. It's like Former Graham Lay Pastor said, this many people saying the same thing or things that agree proves we are telling the truth about the abusive nature of ntcc!
Hopefully others can learn from our experiences and avoid similar tragedies. And those still stuck in ntcc can see it's not just them or the devil. They can see those things they thought were wrong are wrong.
That's the whole point.
I left a burning building when I left ntcc.
Now I am compelled to sound the alarm and warn others.
Angela
Jeff,
ReplyDeletemUck used to preach against shorts.
I heard him myself.
It's just another ntcc flip-flop and double standard. And grant is the key.
When grant was too old to hide in the motorhomes during conferences, that's when the rule changed and suddenly children four years old and older were allowed on the campground.
When grant wanted to play sports, suddenly sports were no longer a sin that could take you away from God.
You know. You wrote about it in your article about not stealing your child's childhood.
It still grieves me to know how many people have suffered at the hands of ntcc hypocrites only to have the rules changed when mikey decided he didn't want his son to be a geek separated from the world he lives in.
Angela
Kristopher,
ReplyDeleteI love your posts they have me crakin' up! I too remember being up late at night for prayer meetings, feeling exhausted driving home. I used to get written up so many time in the Army for falling asleep. The Pastor at the time was cool about letting us go home at a decent hour when we told him about our sleep issues.
I still maintain my standards, and you are right alot of churches do have standards of dress(particularly in the deep south)! Personally I prefer to wear dresses, but I do wear WOMENS pants(especially at work wear they have body fluids flying around and skirts don't cut it!).They "pertain" to a woman's body shape. These pants are made for woman, and it would look hilarious(and gross) for some guy to be wearing them. How many of you guys own velour or rhinestone pants?lol
As far as cutting my head of hair... my grooming habits are nobodys business!!!
N~
N wrote...
ReplyDeletePersonally I prefer to wear dresses, but I do wear WOMAN'S pants.
Jeff wrote...
There have been quite a few wives of NTCC pastors who prefer to wear pants also. I've known of some who wore and still wear sweat pants to exercise in. Pants are pants. An NTCC pastors wife told my wife that she would wear pants to exercise and it was ok. I had another pastor who's wife did the same thing. She would wear pants when she would exercise.
Basically the point that I'm making is that there is a pattern of NTCC leaders who would make exceptions to the rules when it suited their needs and the needs of their family. It is a fact and Mike and Tanya Kekel are the most obvious examples but certainly not the only ones.
Mayers wife wears finger nail and toe nail polish. Don't tell me that white polish is not finger nail polish because it is white. Once again; I'm not Sammy the Sausage head or Willie Nillie. Finger nail polish is finger polish and I don't care what color it is. About the only logical exception would be clear but white ain't clear so it is not different than any other color. Having broaches all over your clothing is no different than wearing jewelry. It's no different than having a necklace around your collar that hangs down on your blouse. What is the difference with pinning something on and draping something on? Notta!!
What is the difference between wearing a watch with all kinds of stones and gems on it and wearing a decorative bracelet? If it is just about keeping time then why not just buy a plain Jane watch without all the stones? Because you want to wear jewelry and the NTCC doesn't make a big deal over broaches and watches with stones all over both of them.
I made that point when I was in the NTCC because pastor Mayers tried to play my wife like Suzie the Sausage Head when my wife had questions about the same topic. Mayers wore every kind of cuff-link you could think of. He had more cuff-links then Don King. What is wrong with good old buttons? They are not snazzy enough right? He wore them on his collar and sleeves.
His wife had rings on her fingers that she and her husband claimed were engagement rings which were upgraded. I'm sure that was the case but it was still another attempt to justify jewelry. One weeding / engagement ring fine. More then one with another worn at the same time in a huge diamond cluster, jewelry. I know, the NTCC had them too broke when they first got engaged so they had to get an upgrade when the tithe payers started coming around. Those two figured out every trick in the book for a man and a woman to wear jewelry as long is it wasn't a necklace or a bracelet.
Clothing and shoes with gem stones all over them oh but I forgot, that is not jewelry if they are fake stones, or at least that is what my wife was told during a womens Bible study. We were the Sausage Head family or at least so they thought. What a joke.
Jeff
Personally; I believe a woman can be a christian, and go to Heaven if she wears pants, works on a job, wears jewelery, or cuts her hair. There is not one scripture in the Bible that says they will go to hell if they do these things............not one! If God was so adament about this, and it was such a matter of Heaven and Hell, he would have clearly stated so! Plain and simple. He does for other things such as adultery, fornication, hatred etc..... You can lust after a woman wearing a little house on the prairie dress, just as much as a woman in tight jeans. You can be rebellious as a long haired woman, or a short haired man! You can wear as much jewelry as Mr. T and be humble as a child, and wear nothing and be as haughty, and proud as Mike Kekel. You can be a productive woman like the virtuous one that is found in Proverbs 31 who worked on a job, or just be a homemaker and still go to Heaven.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is the majority of people that leave NTCC at first do so only physically. It takes years sometimes to leave it mentally. Because RWD and NTCC have done their job, and they have done it well. They have burrowed in your mind a brain washing that doesn't leave for some time. I Know! I struggled with it for years, but am now free from that bondage! Christianity is a matter of the heart! Most people that depart tend to follow a pattern some what similiar to this......
1. They leave NTCC still wanting to be friends, and in good favor with the leadership of NTCC. Only to find the bitter reality that NTCC wants nothing to do with them.
2. Then they search for a church, and make it known to everyone that they have found a church, that is great, and they are still holiness! It doesn't matter folks....... Let me repeat that! It doesn't matter folks.......Because whether you are in a bar room or a Baptist church, the people of NTCC are still going to find fault with you! Plain and simple! They hate you for leaving, because it is a testimony to the fact that you do not agree with them. And the more people that leave and post their testimony, the more that people on the fence still in NTCC are swayed to follow their gut, and leave.
3. So after a while of attending churches, the brainwashing begins to rub off, and they begin to lead somewhat of a normal life. Then they begin to realize how much of their life has been wasted, and the reality sinks in that NTCC is no where to be found, and they have been duped!
4. Now their really upset, because they realize how destructive NTCC was to their lives. How much money they lost, how many relatiopnships have been severed, how many career opportunities thrown away and they are willing to speak out! First they post as Anonymous, and then they post under a secret name, and the more they get it off of their chest, then they just let it all hang out, because they are no longer bound by RWD and his mind control garbage.
5. Blogs such as this are not only a warning siren, but they are also a form of healing! A way of vindication. You are no longer the butt of their jokes, you are no longer intimidated, you are no longer their personal slave, but now the ball is in your court, and whether you think so or not, you score every time you post! The Leadership Hates it!!!! They hate IT!!!!
Christianity forms in the heart. I got saved in NTCC, before I even knew who RWD or MCK were. The person that was so concerned whether Debbie was still holding a certain standard is only doing so because that is what they have been taught to believe! Most people that claim to be christians, do not even ask such pin pointed questions! You have to be taught to do that. Just like you have been taught everything else. Enjoy your christianity folks, its what it was meant to be wasn't it? If your not enjoying it, is it worth even having?
In His Service
Former Lay Pastor
"Basically the point that I'm making is that there is a pattern of NTCC leaders who would make exceptions to the rules when it suited their needs and the needs of their family."
ReplyDeleteNow that's the truth, Jeff. Were you aware that back in the day RW wore a diamond pinkie ring, like some fatcat pimp or gangster? I'm not making this up. It even sparked a short lived fad. Dorsey bought one for his pastor, Jim Ashmore, and a few other ministers had them too.
'Holiness preacher'/'diamond pinkie ring' aren't phrases that naturally associate in the mind, but then RW has long been all about conspicuous consumption. I guess he got tired of the ring, so the clones put theirs away too, but there was a brief time in the org when the pinkie ring was considered de rigueur for any "successful man of God."
Former Graham Lay Pastor-
ReplyDeleteI really liked your description of the phases people go through when they leave ntcc.
And I agree that these blogs are a huge help in the healing process.
Glad you're posting!
Angela
RW wore a diamond pinkie ring, like some fatcat pimp or gangster--Vic
ReplyDeleteVic, that is a HOOT! I'm not surprised one bit. rdub has always loved the world/the pride of life.
It was sad to see him interact with his physical brother, Basil/Uncle Dave. It was so obvious that rdub was always trying to outdo and impress Uncle Dave with rdub's power and money.
But Basil was no fool. He could see for himself the abject poverty of those on rdub's payroll. As a 'sinner' I think it disgusted Uncle Dave. I mean, get real. Most 'sinners' treat their workers with more compassion and dignity than rdub did.
Get real. Uncle Dave wasn't blind. And he wasn't buying into rdub's Big Show.
I wonder if rdub failed to win Uncle Dave to Christ in rdub's ceaseless quest to prove to everyone how much better he (thinks) he is.
Seriously, the Word says (paraphrasing) if Christ is lifted up, He will draw all men to Himself. But rdub was trying to put on the ritz to impress Uncle Dave. That is not lifting up Christ! It is lifting up rdub and worldliness.
Angela
Miss Deborah-
ReplyDeleteI am so glad you posted a picture and your profile. I pray God sends many first time visitors here to read your testimony and profile. People who do will naturally know to avoid such a bizarre and unhealthy environment as exists in ntcc.
I want to thank you for your courage in coming forward. I feel it was a difficult decision after the years of cult indoctrination we went through in ntcc.
I think as more people come forward and reveal their names that more people still in ntcc will begin to see the light.
People do know one anothers' lives (once you get away from the Graham Core Group). And that starts the wheels turning when they realize their friends who left ntcc have stories that the ntcc tried to lie about or cover up.
It makes people wake up when they see you are still a Christian outside of ntcc.
Once again, THANK YOU!
Angela
I just read Debbies credential's....WOW! If you don't believe her witness, you are simply lying to yourself!
ReplyDeleteFormer Graham Lay Pastor
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ReplyDeleteI yelled at Davis, after I slammed the metal chair, "Should not the rich feed the poor?" Rev. Smart told another brother that I lost my mind and just to pray for me. Well, that brother called me, and we talked, and later he left the org, too.
ReplyDeleteThat is hilarious!!!! Kris you have all of my respect in the world my man!!! All of it!!! WOW!!! YEAH!!!! That is so cool!!! A man of God jacked up RW Davis! That place must have fell silent.....I love it!!! RW Davis has had that coming, and everything that people post on these blogs.... I believe God put that in your heart to do that, that must have been so liberating!
Once again ....AWESOME!
In His Service;
Former Lay Pastor
Kristofer said...
ReplyDeleteI yelled at Davis, after I slammed the metal chair, "Should not the rich feed the poor?" Rev. Smart told another brother that I lost my mind and just to pray for me. Well, that brother called me, and we talked, and later he left the org, too.
Jeff said...
Kristofer: I respect the conduct that you displayed which you spoke of in your testimony. It takes some serious guts to do what you did. I so often wish I'd stood up in the middle of service when an abusive NTCC pastor was blowing hot air. Good for you man and I like your blog. I just clicked on the link of your full name and stumbled upon it for the first time. You put a serious amount of work into that blog.
I plan to visit it more often. Once again, that's quite a testimony that you gave. Good for you. For all it's worth, you have my respect Bro.
Jeff
"The person that was so concerned whether Debbie was still holding a certain standard is only doing so because that is what they have been taught to believe!"
ReplyDeleteHow is it that person did not ask if Debbie still prays or reads her Bible?
Some people are such shallow and immature Christians!
Once you leave NTCC, you will realize what a spoon-fed, diaper wearing,"Holiness" pacifier sucking, Christian you were in the org.
The real challenge is living for God with out having some one spoon feed you their warped ideals! (Philippians 2:12-16).
OK Deb, recall in the 1970's he had that huge Sis- Warne come to the pulpit- and asked her "Now, why do women like those diamond necklaces- to draw attention to their bosoms? Yes!" OK, shortly after that Tanya and Debbie Olson started wearing diamond necklaces. And Tanya came into the office one day with 25 plastic bracelet rings on her arm- I was aghast! One day Verna came in with a see-thru blouse-- w/ nice lace bra... I was aghast! Later I heard a good teaching on the "Disfunctional family"- a rule was- You don't see what you see-
ReplyDeleteAfter this all- it was I who was the problem- not NTCC... huh?
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ReplyDelete"To all of you who think, well, maybe it's true. Maybe he made his money from counseling people as a psychologist for $100 an hour, as he has admitted he charges people. He says he has a degree in psychology, and he has even said that he has spent time counseling people who were not a part of the org."
ReplyDeleteMan, it would be good to get more details on this, if it's true. I doubt he has a legitimate degree, and I doubt he can legally represent himself as a 'psychologist.' I could see it though, him masquerading as something he's not for money. He masquerades as a man of God; why not a fake psychologist too? Maybe he's got a shingle out someplace, swindling folks who are looking for help. Not farfetched at all.
"I yelled at Davis, after I slammed the metal chair, "Should not the rich feed the poor?" "
ReplyDeleteAn example of the true move of the Holy Ghost!
Miss Deborah,
ReplyDeleteI found your original post quite compelling and stunning. Part of my personality is that the more serious something is and the larger the story, the longer it takes me to process it.
My initial reaction to what you wrote was to respond by sending the many scriptures which came to mind as I read, not the least of which was Isa 53v4&5, John 1v11 and many more.
However, I understand not all who blog are looking for a scripture.
The true tragedy about ntcc is their insidious ability to cause people to not want to serve God.
On behalf of the Lord, I would like to say that ntcc has seriously misrepresented Who God is.
I thank God for these blogs and for His ability to reach through any storm and calm the raging waves and just speak to the soul:
I AM THAT I AM.
It is impossible for God to lie.
He has said it; and He will perform it.
Such comfort in the truth.
Again, thanks for sharing your story. Sharing our pain helps others know they are not alone.
Peace.
Angela
Vic said,
ReplyDeleteHe masquerades as a man of God; why not a fake psychologist too? Maybe he's got a shingle out someplace, swindling folks who are looking for help. Not farfetched at all.--January 31, 2010 7:26 PM--Vic
Ange says, that is an alarming idea. He routinely breaks peoples' confidences by airing private matters from the pulpit as a means of intimidating people into submission.
Going to rdub or any of his henchmen for 'help' is like asking the devil to cut your throat and then having satan blame you for it.
Look what you made me do!--another code phrase abusers love to say to their victims.
That reminds me of the woman who was raped and a ntcc hireling told her it was her fault.
THAT WAS NOT YOUR FAULT!!
RAPE IS EQUAL TO MURDER!!
God said rape is just like murder.
Deuteronomy 22v25&26.
Anyone who thinks or says otherwise is a fool and or just plain cruel. No one 'asks' to have their life taken away!!!
And you did nothing 'to deserve' it.
In fact, YOU DESERVE BETTER!!!!
Angela
Kristofer wrote...
ReplyDeleteJeff, it's bold bloggers like yourself that helped me to realize that they deserved that- that I wasn't alone, and it wasn't just in my head, but God has placed it in all of our hearts to take a stand in the face of evil. I have visited your blog many times, and I am one of your fans. I have really enjoyed your entries. Your sense of humor not only splits my side, and helps the healing process, but it has helped me to see how easy it is to spot the hypocrisy.
Jeff said...
Thank you very much Kristofer. I've put quite a bit of effort into the blog and it is good to hear that it's going to good use. One of my goals was to embolden people to stand up to the NTCC leadership and stop allowing them to bully folks around. That is actually the main reason that I write much of what I do. It let's folks see that lightning doesn't instantly strike me when I write things such as calling RWD and Olson a couple crooks.
The other reason that I take this type of up in their face approach is because they've done it to church members and other ministers over and over and over and it is about time they get it dished right back at them. You obviously understand that as well as anyone.
Many NTCC pastors use the pulpit to dish out such abuse and I'm not talking about reproof either. Name calling such as calling people and I quote "retards", "fat", "prespeloopian", "backsliding Basptists" and so on. They jump all over their congregation for things like owning cats, having life insurance, owning a car other then a van or large sedan, watching sports, fellow-shipping with someone without permission, not running and tattling on someone in the church and so on.
RWD has emboldened his people to be abusive, controlling, narcissistic jerks, and I deliberately have determined to embolden people to throw it right back at them. Stories like yours literately make me happy. I wish more people would jump up in church and give those abusive crooks a dose of their own medicine. Thanks for the encouragement Kristofer.
Jeff Collins
was just throwing everything in my bag, and I just wanted to leave. He came in and put his hands on me, and pushed me up against the wall. He said he was a sherrif. I asked to see his badge. He showed it to me, and I asked if I was under arrest. He basically talked me into staying until Davis and his entourage of ministers came
ReplyDeleteWhat in the world was a Sherriff doing at the campground???? If that is truly the case, that is just evidence that the NTCC leadership are scared for their lives! And rightfully so, for all of the harm they have done. What was RWD anticipating at that conference? An attempt on his life. A man that paranoid, has a lot to hide, and a lot of people that want a piece of him.
It's funny that he said he has only 3,000 dollars in the bank, I know someone that used to work at Columbia bank, (they no longer work there just for the record, they moved on to better things) but she had access to Tanya Kekels bank account and saw that she had 8,000 dollars in savings just for spending money.... JUST for spending money, and Tanya definately was not donating anything to the Phillipino woman. She has to much shopping at Nordstroms to do. Where did Tanya get that kind of money? She doesn't work! So MCK makes enough to live in that HUGE home, drive those FANCY cars, send his son to an EXPENSIVE private school, play 5,000 dollar custom made guitars, have a house FURNISHED with the most expensive furniture out there, and be able to give his wife 8,000 worth of spending money, and there are Phillipino girls starving w/o food, and shoes under their ministry???? YES MCK's ministry he is the PRESIDENT of the org. What is wrong with this picture?
In His Service;
Former Graham Lay Pastor
Some interesting blog facts. MCK's blog has been up now for almost a year. The first posting was dated Mar.2, 2009. Since the intial start up of his blog, Mike has encrued a total of 20 posts. 106 Amens, 64 interesting's, 108 blessings, and he has allowed 89 comments to go through...that is an accumilation of over a years worth of traffic to his blog. If you were to combine all of these numbers together you would have a grand total of 367 hits over all!
ReplyDeleteDeborah's blog has been up for a little over a week now, and she has almost 900 hits in a week, with 74 postings. Deborah has allowed more comments through in a week than MCK has in a year (almost) she has had more views, to her blog in a week, than MCK has in over a year. So if she has had almost 900 hits, and only 74 posts, that means that over 800 other people besides those that post are viewing her blog!
What am I trying to say concerning MCK's dead, dry, baptist sounding blog. Well....your blog Mike is a lot like your christian testimony...it's LAME!
And as far as Deborah's blog is concerned, I willquote a famous phrase from J.H. Olson......"WE ARE WINNING!!!!"
Welcome to the naval personnel off the coast of Africa!
ReplyDeleteHope you learn the easy way from those of us who have been there and done that!
This church is cultic in its treatment of people.
Best to stay away.
A Christian
FORMER GRAHAM LAY PASTOR SAID,
ReplyDeleteTanya Kekels bank account ... had 8,000 dollars in savings just for spending money.... JUST for spending money, and Tanya definately was not donating anything to the Phillipino woman. She has to much shopping at Nordstroms to do. Where did Tanya get that kind of money? She doesn't work! So MCK makes enough to live in that HUGE home, drive those FANCY cars, send his son to an EXPENSIVE private school, play 5,000 dollar custom made guitars, have a house FURNISHED with the most expensive furniture out there, and be able to give his wife 8,000 worth of spending money, and there are Phillipino girls starving w/o food, and shoes under their ministry???? YES MCK's ministry he is the PRESIDENT of the org. What is wrong with this picture?--F.L.P.
SOUNDS LIKE A NON-PROFIT PRESIDENT'S WIFE'S LIFESTYLE TO ME.
NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FORMER GRAHAM LAY PASTOR SAID,
ReplyDeleteWhat in the world was a Sherriff doing at the campground???? If that is truly the case, that is just evidence that the NTCC leadership are scared for their lives! And rightfully so, for all of the harm they have done. What was RWD anticipating at that conference? An attempt on his life. A man that paranoid, has a lot to hide, and a lot of people that want a piece of him.--F.L.P.
He may have been a sheriff, but that doesn't mean he was in his own county or jurisdiction...
ntcc's used guards at all their services. At the camp they double as parking attendants.
One year somebody torched the cross at the front of the camp.
From then on, it was 'on'....
Kristofer said...
ReplyDeleteI was just throwing everything in my bag, and I just wanted to leave. He came in and put his hands on me, and pushed me up against the wall. He said he was a sheriff. I asked to see his badge. He showed it to me, and I asked if I was under arrest. He basically talked me into staying until Davis and his entourage of ministers came.
Jeff said...
Wow!!!! So because you spoke out in church a dude pushes you up against the wall after you willfully left the building???? What a bunch of bullies. Is everybody reading this? What in the world was an officer doing at conference in the first place acting in any capacity of authority and who gave him the authority detain someone without cause? You can't detain someone without cause or push them up against a wall without legal justification. What, is RWD hiring bully officers to handle disgruntled church members and ministers?
I've never heard of something like this in my entire life. No one should have apprehended you for any reason especially after you left willingly. Davis must have placed that dude there. Davis knows there are a lot of people who don't like him so he must have appointed a bouncer for the lack of a better term. I am totally amazed. So Davis has his church set up so he and his minister can talk to folks any whey the want but as soon as they return fire the bouncer goes after them.
Unbelievable is all I can say. And then Davis started questioning you as well once they all came to your room? You've got to be kidding me. I can't stand the NTCC. I've witnessed people so thoroughly verbally abused in an NTCC church but I've never seen the pastor cornered and pushed up against the wall and questioned essentially by a mob.
Based upon what you've written the dude that pushed you up against the wall acted so fast that he must have been placed in the church by the NTCC leadership obviously including RWD. He must have been specifically put there or instructed to be there as a bouncer for the lack of a better term.
I can tell you this. I thank God it wasn't me. I know myself and as soon as that dude would have run in an attempted to place his hands on me there would have been a serious fight without doubt. I grew up fighting. The first thing that would have happened is that as soon as he rushed me, I would have instinctively either swung at him or threw a double or single leg take down. If the dude was aggressive, fast, and strong, then survival mode would have kicked in and I'd have gone for his eyes, throat, or you know were else. Buddy it would have been a war to say the least because I know how I react when someone attacks me. He obviously wasn't trying to act like a Christian and you best believe that I wouldn't have been either. Wow, I can't hardly believe what you've written. I'm not trying to second guess you but did this guy really push you up against the wall??? Man I'm glad that I wasn't there because one of two things would have happened. I would either be in jail or be filing the largest lawsuit in history against a church organization and for sure either that guy or I would have wound up seriously hurt, PERIOD.
I'm not just blowing hot air or rather hot key strokes either. I know myself and I know how I react when I'm attacked which is exactly what happened to you. You were physically attacked. Man, everyone reading this should leave the NTCC for certain. Now that is real abuse. RWD, Olson, Kekel and all the rest should be blowing up your phone to apologize on behalf of the NTCC INC. That guy should have never put his hands on you. If you didn't put your hands on anyone else, he shouldn't have put his hands on you. Yelling out in church doesn't justify that kind of treatment.
Continued below...
404-405-7842
Jeffrey Collins
continued from above...
ReplyDeleteI'm not second guessing you my friend but are you telling the whole story? Did you physically attack someone first? Push someone down or anything even accidentally? If something like that happened then just maybe I could see some justification for the guy pushing you up against the wall. Boy I've heard it all now!!
Y'all better keep your mouths shut in my church or I'll have my officer buddy jump on you for sure!!! Wow!!!!!!!
Jeff
Anonymous #3 said:
ReplyDeleteWhat am I trying to say concerning MCK's dead, dry, baptist sounding blog. Well....your blog Mike is a lot like your christian testimony...it's LAME!--Anon #3
Anonymous #5 said,
No need to bash the baptists.
kekel's phony blog with it's commmunist strictures IS lame.
His very 'works' prove true everything people have said about how ntcc operates from the cover of darkness and hidden agendas.
kekel can make excuses the way a baby fills diapers and the content is the same. It stinks.
Anonymous #5
Jeff wrote,
ReplyDeleteBoy I've heard it all now!!
Y'all better keep your mouths shut in my church or I'll have my officer buddy jump on you for sure!!! Wow!!!!!!!--Jeff
Jeff, that is stunning, but not surprising to those of us who really know how shady and controlloing ntcc is.
Did you happen to read the "mm" posts on Tracy's blog?
What was discussed was God sent this man into the Graham chapel.
From the pulpit the man rebuked the ntcc for cloaking true worship of God in robes of religion....
The ntcc had ~10 or 11 GOONS jump the guy, haul him outside, throw him in the mud, and tell him: "You'll never stand in this pulpit again!"
That's only some of what "mm" posted. But I'm sure ntcc was ROUGH on the guy.
TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED, DO MY PROPHETS NO HARM.
I wonder if there was a rash of broken arms in ntcc amoungst the goons who threw out God's messenger?
I've had someone get angry at me for telling them something that God laid on my heart. They told me I would never set foot in a particular building ever again.
But it was that person who ended up 'leaving the building'--so to speak--and I have spent some wonderful times in said building.
God knows.
GOD COUNTS IT A RIGHTEOUS THING TO RECOMPENSE THEM THAT TROUBLE YOU.
Payback is God's domain. He is not slack concerning His promises, the way some men count slackness. But is longsuffering. Not willing that any should perish.
God may wait. But He will do what He said He would do.
It may seem like ntcc has gotten away with many things; but God will call their tab someday.
Another Messenger For The LORD
THIS IS LAME. YOU ARE LAME. YOU S-CK. KEKEL'S BLOG.
ReplyDeleteIn one of many excellent articles written by Casey Hayes on fact net, he discusses limiting people's choices. That's what kekel does on his blog. What a joke. He wouldn't even have a blog if Tracy hadn't started her blog and if ntccXposed had not existed.
kekel is a wannabe.
he started out in ntcc as a wannabe rock star. But he didn't have the talent of Sammy Hagar or the good looks of Eddie Van Halen so he chose the davis route: Religious con-artist.
Religious con-artists are the oldest cons in the world. Just ask Cain and Abel. Religious cons are older than prostitution!
So kekel and davis have perfected their art. Plying themselves as shameless hussies. Which is actually a biblical concept. In Bible speak:
THEY HAVE A WHORE'S FOREHEAD, REFUSING TO BE ASHAMED.
No matter. God sees everything and requires that which is past.
Angela
kekel can make excuses the way a baby fills diapers and the content is the same. It stinks.
ReplyDeletePeople should just walk up close to kekel, SNIFF, SNIFF, then make that face like PEEEU-UUU!!! YOU STINK!!! The guy is rotten. His stink is rotten. He should know it.
Where to begin?--Deborah
ReplyDeleteI can relate to that statemen.
Abuse in the ntcc is so common, so rampant, it makes it difficult to know where to begin.
Angela
The other day my Mom and I were talking about how we came in contact with the people from NTCC.--Deborah
ReplyDeleteThis statement made me chuckle: "came in contact with"--it sounds like a plague or a virus!
On a more serious note:
Eric Barden and I had a combined 21 years of service in ntcc.
I can testify ntcc is like a virus. It infects every area of a preson's life and seeks to control, dominate, and destroy people who come in contact with it. As John wrote in his gospel (John 10V10):
THE THIEF COMETH NOT, BUT FOR TO STEAL, AND TO KILL, AND TO DESTROY:
more in another post
Angela
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletePost whatever you guys want (this is moderated anyway). That's what this Blog is for (just like Jeff's), for all of us to continue escorting NTCC's history into the daylight. Kristopher, I would like to hear more of your conference assault account since you said you have more to share.
ReplyDelete"From the pulpit the man rebuked the ntcc for cloaking true worship of God in robes of religion...."
ReplyDeleteAnother move of the Holy Ghost, stifled!
If davis truly did have a Sherrif, or some type of bodyguard at conference, it is evidence of one thing...........He doesn't trust any of you within his own organization.
ReplyDeleteIn his Service;
Former Graham Lay Pastor
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteA doctoral degree generally requires about 5 years of full-time graduate study.
ReplyDeleteA master's or doctoral degree, and a license, are required for most psychologists.
Education and training. A doctoral degree usually is required for independent practice as a psychologist. Psychologists with a Ph.D. or Doctor of Psychology (Psy.D.) qualify for a wide range of teaching, research, clinical, and counseling positions in universities, healthcare services, elementary and secondary schools, private industry, and government. Psychologists with a doctoral degree often work in clinical positions or in private practices, but they also sometimes teach, conduct research, or carry out administrative responsibilities.
------------------------------
Do the math and tell me where did this self made millionaire get his money?
Other qualifications. Aspiring psychologists who are interested in direct patient care must be emotionally stable, mature, and able to deal effectively with people. Sensitivity, compassion, good communication skills, and the ability to lead and inspire others are particularly important qualities for people wishing to do clinical work and counseling. Research psychologists should be capable of detailed work both independently and as part of a team. Patience and perseverance are vital qualities, because achieving results in the psychological treatment of patients or in research may take a long time.
---------------------
I don't think so.
Stock market? Nope, takes money to make money and I think that might be considered white collar gambling.
If I knew there were some fellows that would rent faithfully from me I would take out a second mortgage on my house and buy up some rental property. This would be a great ideal. In a normal market real estate has always been successful.
We could have a winner here. This is all speculation but possible.
One thing we do know hard manual labor profits little.
One more thing, what about the question Davis asked Kristofer "How much have YOU given to the philippines?"
Well, first of all the question from Kristoter was why don't the rich give? I love when people answer a question with a question.
Well newsflash I'm sure Davis knew Kristofer was broke like everyone else in the ntcc. I’ll say one thing I would be embarrassed to say I gave $3000 to this or that, first of all that's chump change for a big shot...
Kristofer-
ReplyDeleteMore good points. Please keep posting here.
If the dude was black and you were at the campground when this happened, he was definitely out of his jurisdiction. The campground area is thick with KKK.
I looked at your blog. Wow. I'll need more time to check it out next time!
My Lord has showed me a better example than that. He was reviled and reviled not again, but He was as a Lamb led to the slaughter. He opened not His mouth. If I couldn't take a little pushing around by one of Rev. Davis' ministers, then I am not worthy to be called a Christian
ReplyDeleteThat would be a great example for Kekel to follow.......Someone stands up in service and calls him out for his racist comments (VIRGO), and we have to take up an offering for the man the next day in service because he got his little feelings hurt! Reminds me of a song I heard Roger Davis sing, and it goes something like this: "Nobody loves me, everybody hates me, I think I'll eat some woormmmsss!"
Kris you were an example of a true christian, hats off to you!
In His Service;
Former Graham Lay Pastor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E
ReplyDeleteFunny but true!
Kristofer said...
ReplyDeleteJeff, the reason I didn't start punching that man, number one, he was a BIG black guy. lol. I am a small white guy with glasses. He probably weighs in at about 250 pounds while I weigh about 160 pounds with my tool-belt on lol. Having said that, even if he was a little dude, I honestly don't want to hurt anybody. I didn't resist him just because he was bigger than me, but also to prove a point. My Lord has showed me a better example than that.
Jeff said...
I fully understand that and I respect that. With me, (because of all the abuse that I witnessed in the NTCC) I simply have no more tolerance for it at all. It obviously didn't matter to those guys whether or not they acted like Christians toward me and my family when they were dishing out all that abuse and I'm no longer interested in acting like one toward them. I gave a real good piece of my mind to the last few pro NTCC church members and pastors that I've talked to. There wasn't any backing down and if one tried to put his hands on me the same would apply. Enough was enough.
So knowing myself, I'm glad it wasn't me in your position. As big as you say he was, one of us most likely would have wound up seriously injured. Having said all that I'm sure you made the right choice and I really mean that.
Being a hot head has gotten me in trouble on more than one occasion. I have a messed up vertebra for life because I underestimated a guy one time. On another occasion I almost got in some real trouble because I jumped on a guy right in front of my Sergeant Major when I was a Staff Sergeant because the guy was trying to pick up on my wife. Fortunately I escaped UCMJ even though I beat the guy down pretty good.
You made the right choice Bro. I guess the whole point that I was trying to illustrate was that the dude had absolutely no business putting his hands on you and I'm sure he was totally out of his jurisdiction and if he would have tried that on the wrong person it could have gotten ugly to put it lightly.
It's obvious that RWD advocated that guy's actions the way I see it. It seems as though the message that the NTCC leadership is trying to send is that if you question one of their ministers in a public setting they will get their bouncers after you. They can verbally abuse you all they want but as soon as you throw it back at them they advocate you being attacked. You can't even stand up for yourself or your family in the NTCC so I strongly suggest that all the folks reading this leave the NTCC for good. Not unless they want to get jumped on the minute they stand up to a blow hard NTCC minister. Those guys are a bunch of bullies.
Half of those NTCC ministers are no different than me because they spent a long time in the military and they don't have a problem jumping on someone if it comes right down to it. They are running their churches like a communist state. No freedom of thought, expression, or speech other than, "IF YOU DON"T LIKE IT HERE THERE IS THE DOOR". RWD is constantly punching folks. Someone ought to hit him back but you better believe they would get jumped on by just about every brother in the whole church. It is a sad situation. They can bully you all they want but you better not dish it back at them.
They've gotten paranoid because they've treated people wrong for so long and as a result some of them have armed officers and bouncers in their church during service. One NTCC pastor said that he had an officer in his church with a gun. They ought to rename their church the New Testament Counter Disgruntled Church Member Corps.
Jeff
Kristofer said...He probably just wanted a pat on the head and a Scooby snack from his owner. No harm done.
ReplyDeleteThat line about the Scooby snack KILLED me! That was so hilarious!!
Go Kristofer!
Jeff said...
ReplyDeleteI fully understand that and I respect that. With me, (because of all the abuse that I witnessed in the NTCC) I simply have no more tolerance for it at all. It obviously didn't matter to those guys whether or not they acted like Christians toward me and my family when they were dishing out all that abuse and I'm no longer interested in acting like one toward them. I gave a real good piece of my mind to the last few pro NTCC church members and pastors that I've talked to. There wasn't any backing down and if one tried to put his hands on me the same would apply. Enough was enough.
***************
Yah yah. And davis himself teaches: "The Lord only said to turn the other cheek one time. After that...?"-smirky gassy-puss.
The problem with your writing, Jeff, is that IT IS SO GOOD!!!
ReplyDeleteI just want to copy and repeat everything so nobody misses it:
Jeff said...
It's obvious that RWD advocated that guy's actions the way I see it.
It seems as though the message that the NTCC leadership is trying to send is that if you question one of their ministers in a public setting they will get their bouncers after you.
They can verbally abuse you all they want but as soon as you throw it back at them they advocate you being attacked.
You can't even stand up for yourself or your family in the NTCC so I strongly suggest that all the folks reading this
leave the NTCC for good.
Not unless they want to get jumped on the minute they stand up to a blow hard NTCC minister.
Those guys are a bunch of bullies.--Jeff's words with some spaces added for emphasis
**********
Ain't it the truth. NOBODY dares stand up or
they will get the beat down
in one form or another.
Blacklisting in ntcc is a reality too.
They want to OWN YOU like a mindless obedient robot or else you will get SCRAPPED.
They are running their churches like a communist state. No freedom of thought, expression, or speech other than, "IF YOU DON"T LIKE IT HERE THERE IS THE DOOR". --Jeff
ReplyDeleteThey are not even good Americans.
They are not Christ-like christians.
The other day my Mom and I were talking about how we came in contact with the people from NTCC.--Deborah
ReplyDeleteMiss Deborah is fortunate to have a Christian mother who will talk to her despite how the ntcc tried to separate this family.
Not all are so blessed.
And though the ntcc B.S. (Bible Seminary) staff do teach students to call home, they only do so to avoid having to answer questions from justifiably worried family members.
It is typical of the ntcc smoke-screen policies. They gloss over the real reason for the rule: avoid inconvenience and possible discovery of being a cult--by providing a glib reason: Uh, you SHOULD call home; yeah, that's it.
Not capable of true affection.
Demanding utter submission.
Intolerant of questions to their authority.
cult cult cult
Angela
Kristofer said: Ya, Anonymous, that was what I asked him- aren't u out of ur jurisdiction? He just answered, no, I'm not! Does anyone know what the rules are on that? Can a sherrif do that in any jurisdiction that he wants?
ReplyDelete"The short answer is that generally a police officer only has jurisdiction within his city limits, but several exceptions apply that might give the officer jurisdiction in a specific case. Also, some states give city police jurisdiction within their county, or even in the entire state.
The reason that it is important that an officer arrests within his jurisdiction is that an arrest outside his jurisdiction is considered unlawful. The state generally will not be successful in prosecuting a defendant where the underlying arrest was unlawful." http://legallad.quickanddirtytips.com/legal-police-jurisdiction.aspx
You could have pressed charges for unlawful assault and battery. Not only were you not actively needing restraint (ie not causing harm to others or yourself) but they are required to identify themselves when in plain clothes. This was excessive force. Also, unless his jurisdiction was the campground, then he lied to you. He could have been brought under charges and suspended indefinitely.
I've looked up laws in many different states concerning this subject. A similar thread was beaten to death on the blog that I moderate.
ReplyDeleteI'm an Officer on Ft. Benning and I must take an exam / test every year on the subject of "use of force" just to keep my job. We just went through annual re-certification two weeks ago where we were re-taught and re-tested on the "use of force".
As an Officer on Ft. Benning we have certain limitations with which we must operate within. All Officers have limitations. One of my best friends who is a Corporal working for the Columbus PD has limitations; (who also circumstantially happens to be an exNTCC church member with about 10 years invested in the NTCC). On Fort Benning I carry a hand gun, a whole bunch of rounds, OC spray, and hand cuffs and we can detain someone. We can detain and cuff someone only if there is tangible justifiable cause and then we contact the police. Someone can curse at us, raise their voice and do a whole variety of other things that do not justify detention or use of force. We can only use force to protect persons or federal property, PERIOD. I will guarantee the same applies in a church. NO DOUBT!!!!!!
An officer can be hired to perform security duties within a church. A special permit must be obtained and the owner of the organization / company / church / corporation must be the one to apply for such a permit. If that is all done accordingly an officer still does not have the legal authority to detain or show physical aggression toward someone without justifiable cause. Speaking out in church and willfully leaving on your own absolutely does not justify detention or the use of force. Pushing someone against a wall is absolutely classified as "use of force". Keeping someone against their will by pushing them against a wall is considered "detaining someone by using force". That is absolutely illegal unless there is a definitive justifiable cause.
Such cause certainly did not exist with Kristofer's situation. Neither RWD or a hired law enforcement officer can legally authorize such treatment even if the Officer was working within his jurisdiction which I sincerely doubt. The NTCC has moved past psychological abuse and on to physical abuse. They've actually combined the two. What they need is to get the pants sued off them so that they can come back down to earth and realize that they have to follow the same laws as everyone else.
Kristofer had a case if he had decided to pursue it. He may still have a case but it would be tough without a witness especially if the brother / officer lied which would be likely. If the guy admitted that he pushed Kristofer up against wall and detained him, the NTCC could wind up extremely liable.
I'd love to see it happen.
Jeff
Speaking of the IRS, do NTCC ministers, board members pay income taxes? I have worked with non-profit organizations including ministers and they paid taxes.
ReplyDeleteAlso have any members from NTCC been able to claim their tithe and offering as a tax deduction?
Just curious
Anonymous asked...
ReplyDeleteAlso have any members from NTCC been able to claim their tithe and offering as a tax deduction?
Jeff said...
With much prodding I was able to get a tithe receipt from a few NTCC pastors. There is nothing that really can be done where the offerings are concerned unless you placed them in an envelope with your name on it and the pastor kept a by-name record of offerings given which would be rather unpractical and unrealistic to expect.
To his credit Oberhauser was very expedient with providing a tithe receipt unlike some other NTCC pastors who I was with. Mayers suggested that it was so difficult to obtain and provide such a document. At that time I didn't know the procedure so I took his word for it only to see him completely proved wrong by Oberhauser. Mayers would always drag his feet with providing the document continually stating that he had to wait on Graham for something.
This is a topic that has been brought up before but some NTCC pastors to include Mayers would try to get you to pay tithes on tax returns. That is so deceitful and crooked because when you pay tithes on your gross income, the taxes were already included so if you get a return, you've already paid tithes on that money in the beginning. It's just a crooked method used by some NTCC ministers to bring yet more money into their church.
But to answer your question, I did write off my tithes while with the NTCC on my itemized tax form and I have no problem with doing so. The same governmental tax codes that require us to pay taxes are the same codes that legally allow us to write off tithes.
Jeff
Miss Deborah,
ReplyDeleteI feel bad about disrupting your vasectomy policy and beginings threads with the comment on the land deal.
However, I feel it is necessary to comment on things when they are discovered in order to keep that information available before it is forgotten.
Would you please consider setting up a hodge-podge thread for folks to comment on the other areas and links you've thoughtfully placed on your blog?
Thanks!
Angela
Deborah said...
ReplyDeleteThose of you from NTCC who are reading this I haven't left God, I moved on because I don't believe in all the rules and regulations that had been placed on us. You have seen for yourselves, and question why is it not okay for me to do this, yet bro/sis so-so can do it. The rules change all the time for various people and circumstances. God has something better for us, he didn't place burdens on us. Sin is the burden, not all of this junk that we've had to follow all these years. I have joy in my heart and my steps are lighter, to God be the glory! Jeff say hello to your beautiful wife, I liked her right away the first time I met her.
God bless,
Deborah Shunk (aka Sis. Blumenthal)
January 30, 2010 11:07 AM
......................................
Ange says,
Just in case you missed it the first time, that statement about not leaving God when one leaves ntcc is SO IMPORTANT.
If somebody tries to tell you that leaving their organization equals leaving God RUN! They have just confessed that their organization is their god.
And ask yourself: Is the yoke that ntcc has placed on you in the name of religion "easy"? Is the burden ntcc has placed on you "light"?
Do your 'leaders' in ntcc bear the same yoke and burden as you?
Why not?
Jesus led from the front.
ntcc 'leaders' drive from the rear with a whip, making demands for work that they have never done.
Sounds like Matthew ch. 23 to me.
Angela
YOU HAVE TIME FOR WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO YOU....
ReplyDeleter.w. davis, the founder of ntcc, used to love to "plow" people with that statement:
"YOU HAVE TIME FOR WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO YOU!!!"
He would YELL that into the microphone while at the pulpit or sitting on his throne teaching a B.S. class (Bible Seminary).
Well, folks, I gotta tell ya, I just clicked on two links that Miss Deborah has thoughtfully included on her blog's home page, and the results are
"VERY TELLING"...
(1)
WORLD MISSIONS AT NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIAN CHURCH:
SITE UNDER CONSTRUCTION (Since 2007?)
(2)
CHILDREN'S CHURCH IN NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIAN CHURCH:
SITE UNDER CONSTRUCTION (Since 2007?)
Uh-hunh...
YOU HAVE TIME FOR WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO YOU... to be continued--Angela
YOU HAVE TIME FOR WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO YOU...
ReplyDeleteBut ntcc has no time to update the ntcc 'official' website since 2007?
Guess you don't want people to know how many ntcc missionaries and pastors are completely abandoned by ntcc to the point where God has to send TRUE
CHRISTIANS FROM REAL CHURCHES OR THEIR OWN FAMILY MEMBERS TO HELP OUT THE MISSIONARIES and PASTORS whom ntcc HAS ABANONED IN THE FIELD.
And if ntcc is not even faithful in these small things, why should anyone trust them with the true riches of their own souls???
ntcc 'leadership' has proven that the people like Miss Deborah's sister, and the Hayes, and the Medinas, and Rich and Diana Hampton, and the FILL IN YOUR
NAMES HERE are not important to ntcc.
ntcc sends these people out to do ntcc's dirtiest work for them; then ntcc leaves them hanging in the breeze high and dry with
NO SUPPORT!!
But remember,
YOU HAVE TIME FOR WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO YOU... to be continued--Angela
YOU HAVE TIME FOR WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO YOU...
ReplyDeleteBTW, your phony phrase: "I'm praying for you." no longer holds water.
I doubt the ntcc 'leaders' have done any REAL PRAYING in a LONG LONG TIME!
Because if they did, they would have to
"get out of the sinning business!"
But I guess the ntcc 'leaders' have no time for TRUE PRAYER. Nor do they take time to update the ntcc 'official' website since 2007.
Well, that's not true. Their money making venues have fresh, updated blog pages that sparkle, shine, change photos, and all but sing and dance.
Yeah, go to ntcc's OFFICIOUS website and see how much they want to soak you for a subscription to their 'news' magazine The Trumpet.
That part of the website is very current....
AND
they have plenty of time to be 'cool online' and anonymously snipe at posters on the non-ntcc websites... It's called DAMAGE CONTROL.
I guess you really do "HAVE TIME FOR WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO YOU."
to be continued--Angela
YOU HAVE TIME FOR WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO YOU...
ReplyDeleteThe sad thing is that SOULS ARE NOT IMPORTANT TO ntcc.
ntcc MISSIONARIES ARE NOT IMPORTANT TO
ntcc.
ntcc PASTORS ARE NOT IMPORTANT TO ntcc.
VERY TELLING.
VERY MATERIALISTIC.
VERY MUCH A CULT.
So ask yourself, WHAT IS IMPORTANT?
Once you've answered that you will say GOOD RIDDANCE TO ntcc.
Angela
That's OK, You make your way to God's house, God WILL provide you with all of your needs! Blah Blah Blah!
ReplyDeleteThank you Sisiter shunk for exposing this phoney gibberish to the masses.
"Rebuke before all so others may fear"
Bro Johnson
All -
ReplyDeleteIf ANYONE was hit, slapped, pushed against a well, smacked and it was not a welcomed advance, there is no other way around it -
YOU WERE ASSAULTED BY INDIVIDUALS IN THE ORGANIZATION!!!!
Press Criminal Charges!!
Bro Johnson
Fast Fact:
ReplyDeleteMy Korean wife Young-mi told me today that when I was "in" NTCC heart mind and soul that God told her that He would take me out of the organization.
The Holy Ghost does not lie!
Bro Johnson
Kurious in Korea
ReplyDeleteDave Armer said
ReplyDelete"Thank God that Connie and I hadn't been sucsessful enough in the serviceman's work to stay, we tried civilian work, and realized that having kid's was an asset to our church work.
More latter
Dave Armer
Still friends, to all who wish it so."
I liked your post. I remember so fondly the love and fellowship with Mom & Pop Gaylord and many of the different pastors I had in the servicemen's homes. I really got to know God there. And, I'll always remember how kind you and were wife were.-- In my book you were very successful.
Steve Tyrer
Deborah, it's good to hear your story. It brought back alot of good memories for me. I'm glad you're still serving the Lord. It can be a "wierd" thing when you realize you've believed in so many wrong things - - sometimes right and wrong can seem blurry.
Steve Tyrer wrote-- I'm glad you're still serving the Lord. It can be a "wierd" thing when you realize you've believed in so many wrong things - - sometimes right and wrong can seem blurry.--Steve
ReplyDeleteSassy says,
In ntcc Wrong is Right or Approved.
And if you don't like it...
Sassy
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Heb. 13v8
ReplyDeleteGod is single-minded. But ntcc is full of double-standards and hypocrisy that cause confusion.
Confusion is a companion to every evil work.
Keep it simple.
Leave ntcc.
Ange
Deb, I can't say I'm enjoying getting to know you through this blog, as the stories you are sharing are tragic. Not ulitmtely though...as you are out and your life seems to be in an upward and outward and skyward and sky's the limit direction...as opposed to the downward spiral which seems to never end.
ReplyDeleteAll I can say is I appreciate the time you and Greg are taking to invest in the lives of others, as well as experiencing the very cathartic and therapeutic affects of writing in your own lives. Does that make sense?