Origin lore; a repository (originally posted 3/16/2010)...

1948

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” – George Santayana (1905)

Enter an origin story in the comments. Preferably before 1975. Or add a link we can go to to save typing. I know there's a lot of histories on the blogs. We will add them to the repository later, for a one stop shop. Thanks.

02-01-2008, 05:22 AM
leftin1991
Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Location: Texas
Posts: 95

Origins of NTCC - Church History Lesson!
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Originally Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004

Before making my decision to leave NTCC, while living in St. Louis I visited several fine Independent churches in Ohio, southern Illinois, and eastern Missouri, met and spoke with several wonderful ministers and their wives who were friends with the Davises and the Gaylords back in the 1960s and early seventies, and preached with and for them. I was able to inform myself as to the "whys and wherefores" of NTCC's schism and split off from the body of Christ. Here is how I see it: In my opinion, I would compare these churches from which RW Davis chose to separate as a living stream, while NTCC has become a pond of muddy, stagnant water which has been cut off from its source. True, it is still wet and will keep you from dying of thirst, but it is far more likely to contain bacteria, so to speak, that will make you spiritually sick.

In future posts I will be providing more details of these historical facts which I have learned for those of you who are curious and interested in the facts. I also welcome your E-mails:

ozark64@juno.com

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After missionary C. L. Barnes died in a jeep accident in the Philippines, R.W. Davis returned to the St. Louis and succeeded him as pastor of the Carondelet Church (PCG affiliate), on Marceau Blvd., near South Broadway & River des Peres, which is where NTCC began (prior to Forest Avenue!). Davis' reasons for withdrawing from the PCG (Pentecostal Church of God of America, headquarters, Joplin Missouri) and going Independent during the late 1960s were in my opinion good and justifiable ones. The by-laws were drafted for the new organization in 1969 (copied almost verbatim out of the PCG By-Law book), and fellowship was found with likeminded churches in several states from Texas to Virginia! Locally, 15 years before work began on the present NTCC campground, Pastor Davis brought Bible students from Forest Avenue (which was then called, Mid-Western Bible Institute) to Sunset Hill Pentecostal Campground in Edwardsville, Illinois, and students would regularly drive across the river to preach at "Bethel Chapel," a large Independent holiness church in Granite City, Illinois, established in 1920. However, a few years later he also chose to cut the organization off from these ministers and churches in the "Free Pentecostal" or "Free Holiness" movement in the mid-1970s. But this time Davis had no Scriptural reason such as "compromise" for leaving that good fellowship, and so one had to be concocted or invented. The only excuse he had for taking a hatchet to the body of Christ was the personal convictions of "some" of the visiting ministers, who frowned on neckties, red dresses, open-toed shoes, & short-sleeved shirts & blouses, and he found fault with that. The underlying and actual reason was his beliefs on Divorce & Remarriage because of his own marriage situation, which was concealed for a time but then became known (See 1 Tim. 3:2), and his desire to build "The Church of My Dreams" as he preached in a sermon once. Not to impugn their pure motives which God alone knows, but the opinion of these ministers was that a primary reason the Gaylords chose to follow and work with and under RWD alone is because of his money (See 1 Tim. 6:10). So therefore they made a "rule" that no one can pastor or evangelize NTCC's churches without having graduated from their sequestered educational institution so they can be taught NTCC's "spin" on things. That is the real reason why for over 25 or 30 years every new student has to sign a paper saying that they will not visit any other church! So that they can require you to carry a card in your pocket in order to be able to fellowship with your brother! It is issued as a "minister's license", but then becomes a tool of manipulation and control, referred to as a "fellowship card." They plagiarized these words from the PCG By-Law book: "We shall not be confined in our fellowship and cooperation to those affiliated with us, and we shall not discriminate against any other member of the body of Christ." I believe these words were at one time true, but they are certainly lying words now! Sorry NTCC, we have at long last entered the "NO SPIN ZONE"! Thank God. As I hope you can see, I have done my homework, and welcome challenges from any of you NTCC'ers concerning these words because they can all be corroborated. There is more that I have learned about R.W. Davis from the early 1970s which I could truthfully say to damage and smear his credibility as a leader and to impugn his reputation as he chose to falsely do to mine, but I will spare him simply because although there is a need to share the facts of church history which I will surely do, I do not desire to bring personal hurt, tear down what God may be doing through him now in spite of his failures, nor to bring up the past unnecessarily.

- Les R., Joplin MO

#2
02-01-2008, 01:55 PM
chief
Guest Posts: n/a

Thank you for your insight.
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This is quite interesting. Information such as this certainly can satisfy curiosities that some of us have. I am interested in knowing about the NTCCs origins simply because I spent so much time with the organization. No one can deny that Rev Davis is quite an amazing character. For him to be the inspiration behind building such an extensive group of churches is without doubt quite an accomplishment. I don’t agree with some of the means that were used to fulfill this accomplishment however it is a significant accomplishment nevertheless.

I wish that along with his business sense he recognized how identify more people with real character. I did not follow Ron Dennis when he propositioned me and my wife. I knew that problems existed in the NTCC but I was not going to jump out or the kettle and into the pot. I spent about a week with that guy and saw right through the facade plainly. Mr. Dennis talked entirely too much about himself constantly. The other thing was that he heard only what he wanted to here. I would follow RWD way before I would follow Dennis; in fact I wouldn’t consider following Dennis. I am amazed that someone as smart as RWD could not see that about Dennis. I guess Dennis would portray himself differently with RWD than he would with church members. Money and someone that can produce it like Dennis, can blind some of the best. Make no mistake about it; RWD is a very smart guy. RWD needs more people that will tell him truly how they feel about things and less people that are yes men who can’t think for themselves.

It is funny but there is one more man that comes to mind that I am almost certain is an overseer. He immediately, in service and out, struck me as having character traits similar to Ron Dennis. This guy is esteemed highly in the NTCC organization. I will not mention a name but RWD would be wise to check some of this gentleman’s practices as well.

Thanks again.

#3
02-01-2008, 02:27 PM
victorjohanson
Senior Member Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 307


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"RWD needs more people that will tell him truly how they feel about things and less people that are yes men who can’t think for themselves. "

That's very true, but unfortunately he views anyone with the balls to express candid views as a potential threat. He disdains yes-men, but then he provides an atmosphere in which only they can succeed.

#4
02-01-2008, 03:31 PM
bro derrick
Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 561

Amazingly Smart
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Yes. He wants the kind of yes-men that know when to say yes and no: when he wants them too.

It's the kind of twisted habitat where men learn to call inverted-psychology, spiritual insight:

If I agree with the mind of Davis, then I have the mind of Christ!

Yes a very great accomplishment indeed, and very smart too!

Too bad it's of the devil. (Rev 17)

#5
02-02-2008, 02:37 AM
ctyankee
Guest Posts: n/a

The Narcissist
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Chief,

RWD is a classic narcissistic personality type. He displays all the professionally documented signs. Therefore, he is incapable of either seeing or accepting the faults in himself or in the organization he created. Google "Narcissistic Personality Disorder" and check it out for yourself.

#6
02-02-2008, 04:04 AM
seerofthings
Guest Posts: n/a

ask me. I was there 1974-1982
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Hello all- its been 25 year since I left...
I may have many insights to share-

#7
02-02-2008, 04:16 AM
seerofthings
Guest Posts: n/a

The night in 1974 I arrived
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There was a big-blow up in Carondelet Church. 3 women accused the leader of adultery. We started church on Forest Avenue. The leader left town under advice of his peers. He told us he should have not. He went down the (seats) person-by-person asking- one night, "Would God send you to a place where an adulteter was? One brother quipped later , "Maybe he repented, I don't know"
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Last edited by seerofthings; 02-02-2008 at 04:18 AM.

#8
02-02-2008, 11:45 PM
leftin1991
Member Join Date: Jan 1970
Location: Texas
Posts: 95


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Hello Seer, and Welcome! Do please educate us further concerning your experiences in the 'legendary' Carondelet Church, thanks! I am sure they will dovetail with the things I have been told by pastors in the holiness movement I am sure you would know, such as Bros. Harry Greaves (Florissant Mo), Bobby Newton (Pacific Mo), L. L. Collins (Hamilton Oh), Kenneth & Vera Brand (Lorain Ohio, formerly East Alton Ill.), David Miller (Cincinnati), and Sister Dorothy Barnes (Neosho Mo), as well as Carl Sensabaugh, who pastors a Charismatic Church south of St. Louis. I am especially interested in the relationship of NTCC to the Independent brethren & Free Holiness evangelists who were still coming through even during Forest Avenue days. And can you tell us about what ever happened to the Carondelet Trio, who made the "You've Got a Friend" album?

Although my FACT Net location is given as "Texas," that is in error. I am in Joplin, Mo.
- L. Rinehart tracts@juno.com
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Last edited by leftin1991; 02-02-2008 at 11:47 PM.

#9
02-03-2008, 01:52 AM
seerofthings
Guest Posts: n/a

Well, the can's out of the worms
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I'm in for it now- having to re-hash 1974- I'm over it. Anyway I was not a member of that church. I went to St. Louis to hear a man of God who preached loud and strong. I did not know how little he knew about the Word, or I would have gone to Rhema in Tulsa, etc...

Anyway, I just described how I saw it as a very young person arriving in the horrible turmoil of 1974. I did not believe it. What a mess it was.
I think he made people mad- as usually happens.

The school stareted out humbly, persecuted alone, independent. The new students had a heart for the Lord, and we loved each other. RW DAvis often quipped how that no one ever tried much to "restore" him, biblically.

When they spread gossip over my departure- that just proves Rev 21:8 will be true- I have not told and will not tell any lies about it.

There is an old Eli who cannot hear a certain voice like the Samules today are hearing.

#10
02-05-2008, 02:38 AM
chris fears
Guest Posts: n/a

half-truth?
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How about that. No wonder we got the "edited" version. We were told RWD hooked up with the Gaylords, and the whole "seminary" was started because some GIs wanted training to be preachers. That RWD left peacefully from whatever org he was in. Only half truths? Nothing about the turmoil that ntcc was birthed of.
If you're leaving, steel yourself. Apparently there is a long tradition that goes back further than ntcc. Looks like no one can leave nice. Every other org would give you a little going away party and a "God bless you in your labors for Him..." They wouldn't go behind your back and tell everyone why you're leaving before you do. They wouldn't blast your wife over the pulpit and then afterwards tell you that "maybe Thurs should be your last service.." When you question it.
If you leave make sure you get your side of the story to those who you think it will matter most. Otherwise you'll wish you had. Before your character was smeared.

#11
02-05-2008, 07:58 AM
victorjohanson
Senior Member Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 307


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"RW DAvis often quipped how that no one ever tried much to "restore" him, biblically."

I never knew NTCC to be too big on biblical restoration either. The rapidity with which brothers and sisters are discarded for the most trivial reasons is astonishing. This organization has left in its wake a trail of human debris, which would be greater but for the fact that many have healed over time (albeit with some scarring).