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| Easy to understand, easy to apply. |
Let’s say (just for this article) tithing is still in effect because there are no specific prohibitions against it in the New Testament (along with stoning rebellious sons, et al). But, since there are no New Testament guidelines on how tithe is to be executed by Christians, we must refer to the Old Testament only, to find how this is to be accomplished (the same way we do for the meaning/definition/understanding of alter, sacrifice, wilderness, redemption, priest, faith, et al).
Let’s ignore all the arguments for and against mandatory tithe, and all acknowledge just one thing…tithe in the Old Testament was used only to feed the priesthood (their only inheritance), supply the fixin’s for love feasts/sacrifices, and to feed the poor (charity).
So, what does real tithe look like…without, you know, ignoring anything contained in the Bible, or the fact that the Ministry is a business; or relying on secular history, secular custom, and/or any other source outside the Bible?
Again, we don’t learn anything at all from the New Testament, and the Abramic tithe is too narrow to support the huge unrelenting and unrepentant demands of NTCC’s business model, so must be ignored (we’ll be ignoring a lot of Bible for this article, in giving NTCC some wiggle room).
So let’s look at what tithe is supposed to look like, according to the Old Testament Law:
• Only paid by ethnic Jews, and maybe converts to the Jewish religion (but let’s ignore this, plus – we are spiritually Jews now)…
• Only as little as less than 10% and not more than 30%, and only on the increase (so only tithe on what’s left after taxes and offerings, and a case could be made after all household bills also since increase is profit after all overhead/expenses [if the Ministry is a business, our personal lives should be also], plus - Abram’s tithe was after deducting for all expenses associated with his military campaign, and the bounty paid to 3 of his men)...
• Only agricultural products…
• Only to the Levites; and only for their inheritance (but let’s ignore this, plus - Christ is our inheritance)…
• Only for sacrifice (but let’s ignore this, plus - Christ is our sacrifice)…
• Or regular feasts (may include alcohol also); to which anyone/everyone is invited…
• Only at the Tabernacle/Temple (but let’s ignore this, and say it could also be at a Conference/Seminar, plus - we are now the Temple of God)…
• Or at a person’s homestead (NTCC leadership could also be invited, as long as you pay their way there) every third year (this means no tithe for HQ, or the local NTCC church during this year, plus – not many NTCCers have homesteads).
So how can tithe be prosecuted in modern times without ignoring too much Bible?
1. Feed (tithe to) the Pastor and his family…
2. Feed (tithe to) the poor, widows, orphans, sinners, et cetera at a twice (or more) a year conference…
3. Feed (tithe to) these same types of people at your own house once every three years (NTCC leadership could also be invited, as long as you pay their way there).
Food doesn’t really line up with the Holy Ghost’s historical method for infusing cash into the NTCC business model…does it?
Therefore, how much Bible are you willing to continue to ignore, just to get other people’s money, and to be in tune with the Holy Ghost? Additionally, are you willing to go against how the Holy Ghost has been directing NTCC for over 4 decades, and just follow the pattern contained in God’s Word?
We all know the ministry is a business, but surely God is able to pay the bills if things are done rightly; without relying on man-made programs (mandatory Christian tithe), misappropriation (mandatory Christian tithe), or misrepresenting (mandatory Christian tithe) some parts of God’s word while ignoring other parts?
Again, what is the approved Biblical use for tithe?
1. An inheritance (but let’s ignore this)…
2. Sacrifice (but let’s ignore this)…
3. Sustenance…
4. and charity…Not property, buildings, cars, salary, pews, songbooks, et cetera. Yet, NTCC says tithe is, “…not to be given to charity or used for other purposes.” So, the Bible is obviously wrong?
Since one of NTCC’s claims to fame is they are “Full Gospel,” the minimum they should be doing (according to only the Bible) is use ALL tithe to feed the Pastor and his (no women allowed to minister in NTCC) family, host frequent church dinners (to which anyone is invited), and give the rest of the money away (in the form of grocery gift cards) to those in need. The secular WIC program, and food-stamp program is exactly what tithe should look like.
Offerings can be used to pay all other bills. If only offerings can’t cover all church expenses (other than food for the Pastor and family) then the individual church’s overhead is too high, and must be reduced (if being in line with the Bible’s pattern is a concern, and if the Ministry really is a business). Selling assets and buying a smaller venue (how much facility does one need for a congregation of 10 – 20 people), renting, home church, or hotel conference rooms are all reasonable options/solutions (plus, pride wouldn’t be as much of a danger in these humbler venues). Remember, the church is a business, and pride kills. We are all admonished in Bible College to be on the lookout for ‘pride of equipment’ in our own life.
We could even allow that cash tithe could be used for any type of charity, and not just food vouchers. Or even pay targeted needs in the local church’s community (i.e. occasionally pay someone’s rent, utilities, tank of gas, grocery trip, wardrobe, car payment, take the elderly/widows to doctors appointments and buy them lunch at OCB afterwards, et cetera), as a local need arises that the church is made aware of.
If the Bible is to be believed/followed, tithe should never be used for anything other than food. Not as part of the Pastors salary, not for any building expenses, et cetera. If there is a surplus of tithe after the Pastor and his family are fed, the money can only go toward feeding others (this includes sinners). Soup kitchens and food pantries are the only things that fit this to a T. Food vouchers purchased from a local grocery store could be given away also.
If the Bible is to be believed/followed, tithe should never be used for anything other than food. Not as part of the Pastors salary, not for any building expenses, et cetera. If there is a surplus of tithe after the Pastor and his family are fed, the money can only go toward feeding others (this includes sinners). Soup kitchens and food pantries are the only things that fit this to a T. Food vouchers purchased from a local grocery store could be given away also.
LET’S REVIEW: You may not be willing to question your tithe beliefs, but why does “I can’t remember the last time I sinned,” coupled with “All I do is by the Holy Ghost,” and “I have never missed God,” continue to go unquestioned by you after all these decades, since the empirical evidence dictates otherwise?
Gregory the Unlearned
Hello all,
ReplyDeleteThis article is not exhaustive, and is what amounts to a first draft. I am posting it anyway in the hope people will critically consider it, and indicate any flaws/inconsistencies in its reasoning. Iron sharpens iron, right? As the points I make are inarguably refuted, I will line them out of the home page post (unless an edit can fix any disputed portion). This will help me neatly/precisely keep track of what has been accomplished, and which of my points are inarguable after each side takes their best shot.
Gregory
Gregory (the unlearned as coined by mck of the ntcc) said:
ReplyDelete" I am posting it anyway in the hope people will critically consider it, and indicate any flaws/inconsistencies in its reasoning."
Don said:
Much to my own discredit, the first 13+ years of my Christian life as a business partner (or church member, because partners usually share in profits, I mean blessings), consisted of the false teaching that tithe = money.
Within the past 10+ months I have studied one book (the bible) and one reference guide (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance) and it has been revealed to me from above (okay, that's a stretch) in plain English, I mean Old English that tithe has nothing to do with cash.
What you wrote makes perfect sense and can be found many times throughout the Old Testament. To my limited knowledge there are no flaws or inconsistencies. The ntcc teaches to bring all of your cash into the storehouse of God and before Uncle Sam gets his chunk, Uncle Davis must be paid. Cash on the barrel head only, no checks and don't file it on your income taxes least there be a paper trail. If your paycheck is $1,349.00 don't pay $134.90 because you will be limited in the blessings you receive and referred to as a tightwad in private, or perhaps from the pulpit.
It is a blessing to pay your tithe in cash, and give in offerings (also cash), but if you don't pay Uncle Davis you will definitely not be blessed and not only that, but you will be considered a God robber.
As usual Gregory, you have provided a very accurate and biblical description for the purpose of tithe. I would add that of the ten percent of agricultural increase received by the Levitical Priesthood, 10% of that went to the leaders of the Levitical Priesthood, or the Sons of Aaron for a total of 1%, and all of that was given as an offering to God. If somehow we are wrong about the cash and some obscure passage hidden in the Old Testament was lost in translation and tithe did equal cash, I could say unequivocally that it is not divvied up among the leaders for the purchase of Motor Homes, BMWs, Mansions, Secular Education for Lost Loved Ones, Arizona Single Family Dwellings Purchased at Forclosure for the purpose of keeping non profit organization leaders in the top 1% of the wealthiest tycoons around, or any other purpose that we have seen exhibited by the ntcc.
Don and Ange
P.S. I used to think "unlearned" meant that a person did not take the time to learn something, but what it really means is that after a person learns something and discovers it is false or impractical, they unlearn that false teaching or practice by doing it the correct way. I have been trying to unlearn much of what was instilled in my mind when I was young and impressionable by the ntcc.
Okay. So where is the "like" button? I am lol as I read these things. Good job, men!
ReplyDeleteAnge
P.S. The word verification word for this post was billishn... so close it could almost be a biliken... ;-)
Barnes Notes (Malachi 3:8) -
ReplyDeleteShall a man rob or cheat - , defraud God? God answers question by question, but thereby drives it home to the sinner's soul, and appeals to his conscience. The conscience is steeled, and answers again, "In what?" God specifies two things only, obvious, patent, which, as being material things, they could not deny. "In tithes and offerings." The offerings included several classes of dues to God:
(a) the first fruits ;
(b) the annual half-shekel Exodus 30:13-15;
(c) the offerings made for the tabernacle Exodus 25:2-3; Exodus 35:5, Exodus 35:21, Exodus 35:24; Exodus 36:3, Exodus 36:6 and the second temple Ezra 8:25 at its first erection; it is used of ordinary offerings;
(d) of the tithes of their own tithes, which the Levites paid to the priests Numbers 18:26, Numbers 18:28-29;
(e) of the portions of the sacrifice which accrued to the priests Leviticus 7:14.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
8. rob-literally, "cover": hence, defraud. Do ye call defrauding God no sin to be "returned" from (Mal 3:7)? Yet ye have done so to Me in respect to the tithes due to Me, namely, the tenth of all the remainder after the first-fruits were paid, which tenth was paid to the Levites for their support (Le 27:30-33): a tenth paid by the Levites to the priests (Nu 18:26-28): a second tenth paid by the people for the entertainment of the Levites, and their own families, at the tabernacle (De 12:18): another tithe every third year for the poor, &c. (De 14:28, 29).
offerings-the first-fruits, not less than one-sixtieth part of the corn, wine, and oil (De 18:4; Ne 13:10, 12). The priests had this perquisite also, the tenth of the tithes which were the Levites perquisite. But they appropriated all the tithes, robbing the Levites of their due nine-tenths; as they did also, according to Josephus, before the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus. Thus doubly God was defrauded, the priests not discharging aright their sacrificial duties, and robbing God of the services of the Levites, who were driven away by destitution [Grotius].
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteReally? Many of us have Barnes' notes.
Yet, the clear premise of my post was what is the 'form' tithe should take according to only what is contained in the Bible (hint: it isn't cash), not whether we should tithe or not.
I wrote at the begining of the article, "Let’s say (just for this article) tithing is still in effect because there are no specific prohibitions against it in the New Testament..."
So what is the form of Christian tithe (only according to the Bible)?
I shared my reasoning somewhat completely, for all to examine. Any relevant comments (or even prove me wrong)?
Also, offerings are not addressed in the article.
Gregory
DS or GS said:
ReplyDelete"So what is the form of Christian tithe (only according to the Bible)?"
Don said:
There is no such thing as Christian tithe. There is no Christian Circumcision and the are no Christian animal sacrifices. These were all eliminated along with the rest of the laws and ordinances pertaining to the Levitical Priesthood when Jesus became our sacrifice. The anonymous commenter can not show you any New Testament Christian scripture that commands New Testament Christians to pay Christian tithe because there is not a New Testament scripture to support this Old Testament Doctrine. Christians were first called Christians at Antioch. There were no Christians in the Old Testament and there is no Commandment to pay tithe in the New Testament.
Anonymous can quote every verse in the bible that mentions the word tithe but he will not quote any that mention what tithe is.
If there is a requirement in the old testament that is supposed to be carried over into the new testament, please show us. You admitted in your statement that monetary gifts were considered offerings. Can you show us where tithe has anything to do with money. If you are going to use scripture which you should, explain how that scripture supports one tenth of your money. Then show us the verse that says to continue this in the new testament. So far nobody, has been able to do this without adding a whole bunch of personal opinion. I'm very passionate about this subject because the more I study it out the more I realize that I was the one that was robbed, not God. I did give willingly but under false pretenses. When you factor in the rest of the cult doctrine that contributed to wasting years of our lives so that others could be rich, it's enough to make my oatmeal hit the wall.
Don and Ange
Don,
ReplyDeleteI admire your passion. Again, the temporary premise of the article is that there is such a thing as Christian tithe.
Your and Anonymous' arguments have all been cited before--over and over and over and over and over again--by me, and many others.
I am approaching this issue from a different direction; mainly how should tithe be executed, and what form should it take, since there is no guidance in the New Testament? The mandatory tithers are the ones who cite tithing because it hasn't been done away with by anything in the NT.
Anonymous additionally falls into the same old trap of supporting a beliefs for paying from the OT, therefore one should also look to the OT for what tithe looks like, and what it should be used for (not just that it was paid...NTCC is full Gospel, is one of their claims), since the OT tells us, and the NT doesn't.
For the article, we didn't even require adherence to only paying to Levites, and that it was only for their inheritance.
I ignored a lot of what is actually in the Bible (OT), in order to temporarily grant that we should tithe, and that tithe based on what is only contained in the Bible looks a lot different, and is used a lot differently than mandatory tithe teaching churches teach and preach.
If a person was really as interested in following the Bible as they would like to believe, there would be a lot more soup kitchens, food pantries, and free all-you-can-eat buffets.
A person could still tithe in cash, but its use would be as close to the pattern contained in the OT as one could get, and not just "give your 10%, and we will use the money in any manner we choose" by ignoring what is actually in the Bible.
Mandatory tithers are the ones who use the OT to support their teaching/legislation. One of my points is, there are more guidelines there than just the definition of the word tithe.
Gregory
Gregory said:
ReplyDelete"Mandatory tithers are the ones who use the OT to support their teaching/legislation. One of my points is, there are more guidelines there than just the definition of the word tithe."
Don and Ange said:
That is a very good point. It seems like many mandatory tithers take the definition of tithe being 10% and they automatically assume that everyone knows this means money and then when it gets misappropriated they also defend their leaders for the misappropriation thereof. How could so many of us fall for this? I guess we trusted in man more than God. The belief that we were all part of something great outweighed the reality of what is contained in God's word.
The new testament has a lot of guidance for offerings, but not much of anything for tithe. If we used the New Testament model of free will offerings to govern how tithe is supposed to be appropriated or distributed, the ntcc would be in the same boat as the Pharisees.
The ntcc has really done a number on tithe. They use old testament scriptures mixed with supposition to support their definition of tithe being the first fruits of your increase, 10% before anyone gets their paws on it, as was shared quite often. They also use OT scripture to instill fear into everyone and to segregate the ones who don't pay it as God robbers and the ones who do pay it as Holy Saints.
Then they twist OT scriptures even more by taking the OT model of tithe on tithe that the Levite's gave to the sons of Aaron to justify them getting their hands on pastor tithe and church tithe. That's really a stretch.
Then they jump to the new testament and use the Buisness Model for NT offerings saying if we minister spiritual things we should reap carnal things and not to muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn which is in both Testaments. Does God care for Oxen? However, Paul did not make this mandatory. Tithe is not even supported by any of this.
Everywhere you look in the NT you find monetary giving is not referred to as mandatory, which as you pointed out has been covered time after time by many in the blogosphere.
You really have to massacre the bible and God's teachings to get to the point where we are even ready to discuss how this "tithing" money is to be dispersed. Okay so assuming that tithing is mandatory and biblical, how should they spend it? If you use the OT model, it should all be offered up as sacrifice to God, which means you would have to empty out your wallets of 10% and burn it on the Altar. If you use the NT business model the ntcc would be the ones burning because there is nothing anywhere in any part of the bible, in any version that I'm aware of that says they should do with it as they have done. They haven't done anything for their own, less alone the poor. They have not followed any examples that Jesus left. I guess they have created their own interpretations that could be filed under the book of Acts according to rwd.
I better post this now before it gets too long plus the verification word is blesser.
Don and Ange
I've said this many times before Greg, but the most valid debate point to be used to question the validity tithing in the NTCC is their own doctrinal statement.
ReplyDeleteIf I wanted to seriously twist the scriptures they use to support "manditory tithing", at best I "might" be able to formulate a compelling argument to support the NTCC's stance on the subject but you would still have to ask yourself?
Why, if tithing is so cut and dry like the NTCC makes it out to be, do they include 1 Cor 16:2 in their doctrinal statement to support tithing? A blind idiot could plainly see that 1 Cor 16:2 has absolutely NOTHING to do with tithing. It is so obvious what the verse is talking about and it ain't tithing. I deals with taking up a "one time collection" for the relief of the poor, plain and simple. No more, no less. So if tithing is so cut and dry, why does the NTCC include that scripture in their doctrinal statement to support tithing? The answer is, it is anything but cut and dry and the NTCC leadership knows it.
So they take a completely irrelevant scripture, toss it in their doctrinal statement and the yes/company men like I was don't even question it. That is like me saying, we are required to observe the Sabbath Day, and then throw in a scripture dealing with communion or Easter to support it and just leave it at that. You'd tell me I was out of my mind but for some reason the NTCC loyalists don't even question 1 Cor 16:2? The brainwashing is deep but it's starting to lossen up and I can tell by the people who are leaving.
Is 1 Cor 16:2 the best they can do in a attempt to prove the requirement of mandatory tithing? That in itself should cause a good bunch of people to all together question that mandate. My thing is, if you are going to teach that tithing is mandatory, at least use scriptures that have something to do with it in your doctrinal statement. 1 Cor 16:2 has NOTHING to do with it.
Hey, I never did have a problem with giving as unto the Lord or for that matter to the church but please don't insult me and try to play me like I'm some kind of dummy by tossing a completely irrelevant scripture in your doctrinal statement to support tithing that clearly has absolutely NOTHINHG to do with it!!!!!! When you do that, then your whole doctrine falls in question!!! That wasn't a mistake that they included 1 Cor 16:2; they tried to play people like a fiddle and the sad part is, it worked!!!! Well not anymore; I'm no longer brainwashed. If it's a spade, I'm calling it a spade.
Jeff
Greg,
ReplyDeleteI have been bringing out many of the points you made in other places as well. I agree with much that you are saying, but can not say wholeheartedly that I do because some places I have to assume that you are being sarcastic, but it's hard to tell sometimes if you are. I think your "cyber poker face" is a little too good. Maybe indicate when you are kidding and when you are serious, or just make it completely serious or completely a satire on NTCC. Sorry. I don't mean to be critical, but I just find myself getting distracted as I am trying to fathom your deep concepts. It just seems like too much of a mixture (even within the same sentence at times) of satire and your sincere beliefs. I will keep trying. Maybe I am just too simple-minded.
Anyways,
You said you were focusing on:
"mainly how should tithe be executed, and what form should it take, since there is no guidance in the New Testament?"
This is somewhat of a paradox. Your answer is in your question. You CAN'T say how tithe should be executed in the NT, BECAUSE there is no guidance in the NT.
If I could narrow it down to one good point that this article brings out it would be that the MODEL for GIVING in the NT should be for supporting the ministers in your local church as well as the leaders of your church (because they paid tithe to the local Levite as well as the Levites in Jerusalem), and for feeding the widows, orphans, and strangers in the land.
I think it is a non-issue. I understand your point though. IF THE OLD TESTAMENT MODEL FOR TITHE IS MANDATORY then we should follow the ENTIRE model, not just the ten percent part. However, and I'm sure you agree, it is quite clear from it's severely lacking presence in the NT that it is very likely not mandatory anymore but giving is.
I will just add to this that 1 Cor 16:2 does show us that giving for the poor saints should be done regularly. Paul said each Sunday they should lay aside something. He didn't say 10 percent. In another place he indicated it was entirely up to you how much you give, but you will be blessed according to how MUCH you give.
In conclusion, I say we don't need to follow the OT model for tithing, but we should follow the NT model for GIVING (i.e. to poor saints) and follow the instructions of Paul (i.e. communicating to those who teach us in all good things), and follow the example of the early church sharing with one another.
Justin Martyr c. 160AD: "The wealthy among us help the needy... As for the persons who are prosperous and are willing, they give what each thinks fit."
Ireneaeus c.180AD: "Instead of the Law commanding the giving of tithes, He taught us to share all our possessions with the poor."
I think in America, we are a bit confused as to what to do with our money in churches as there are few starving in them. One need only look across the ocean to the lost and dying souls who do not know Jesus and as a result are suffering socially and economically as well as spiritually. Should we not take our charity and Gospel to them? Do they need to be on our porch with the dogs licking their wounds for us to help them? Christ commissioned us: Go ye into all the world!
Kris,
ReplyDeleteSorry about the problem you have with this article. I always write for an audience that has at least 6 characteristics; they…
1. Have a thorough knowledge of NTCC, and what they teach and preach (at the highest level they were ever at).
2. Have a basic knowledge of the Old and New Testament.
3. Have a developed (or developing) ability to recognizing hypocrisy, inconsistency, and error when they come across it.
4. Have a willingness to (at least) read commentary on NTCC.
5. Have the ability to separate wheat from chaff (i.e. recognize sarcasm, hyperbole, incredulity, skepticism, et cetera, without it being pointed out to them). Although, I add the sarcasm, et cetera, for my own amusement.
f. And, they are still in NTCC.
Or are not involved, but are looking for relevant online information about NTCC (caveat emptor).
In influencing NTCC, I have used selected portions from “Rules for Radicals” (a popular manual from my youth, along with “Steal this Book”) as a guide. NTCCers can only benefit from trading Machiavelli for Alinsky (and “Steal This Book,” since so many NTCCers are poor [though most of the book’s contact information is now incorrect, the concepts are still sound for those in need]).
To move any discussion with/about NTCC along, I grant them certain points/concessions so we can come to a conclusion on an issue. For example, I always refer to NTCC’s leadership by their demanded titles (Reverend, Pastor, Apostle, Senior Pastor, et cetera)…otherwise NTCCers will not allow their thinking to move past this perceived slight. I like to choose my battles.
Just for this article I granted the Christian should be tithing. This potentially/theoretically gets us a lot farther toward consensus/change—at least for the non-agenda driven seeker—than any other tack I have read. Because, this forces them to bypass their rote, and now kneejerk ‘to tithe or not to tithe’ defense, and defend why the cash tithe given to NTCC is “…not to be given to charity…,” since charity is exactly what God has declared (in His OT) tithe should be ordained for. A charitable inheritance for the Levite, charity to the poor, widows, stranger, et cetera, and charity funded celebrations of God (for our own, and others, benefit) for his glory. NTCC’s preferred (and only) methods of spending/distributing tithe omit/bypass “the law, judgment, mercy, and faith.” NTCC claims the ‘Full Gospel’ designation, so we should reasonably expect to see evidence of this. Just sayin’…So, don’t kill the messenger.
Again, the concession I allow for this article is “All Christians pay tithe… since there are no specific prohibitions against it in the NT”. This is NTCC’s officially parroted policy. So, I used this as my stepping off point (“Rules for Radicals”).
Anyone, with the goal of effecting change in any organization, would do well to read (and apply) Saul Alinsky’s book.
NTCC’s policies generate their own paradox, with no help from me. I just like to follow the linear reasoning these policies generate, farther than their cult members do, and than their leaders will acknowledge. I don’t have to ignore/discount anything logical (or that’s in the Bible) now that my family and I have escaped their orbit.
Also Kris, this article is on tithe, not giving (as I pointed out in an earlier comment to Anonymous). If it helps, I have a separate tithe article for the OT and one for the New on queue (but, none on giving, since there is no disagreement here). This post was only my introduction (and conclusion) to these two articles.
When one puts together, in one place, all the different teachings on any given NTCC policy, the paradox generates itself, thus becoming clearer. So again, don’t blame me; the NTCC provides the contradictions, I am just a reporter.
Gregory the unlearned
Wow! I don't know what to say. Have you ever taken an I.Q. test? I think your rating would be really high. People can increase their I.Q.s i think by reading a lot, and it sounds like you have. I think the problem is that when people become too smart, they begin to make their sphere of friends smaller and smaller, because less and less people can appreciate all the intricacies of their thought processes.
ReplyDeleteKris
ReplyDeleteMy amount of friends has greatly increased over the last few years (post exit), so I do not suffer from excessive smartness.
I have been reconsidering what you wrote (after I posted my response), and I believe I found a simple way to identify most of my sarcastic, et cetera...It seems I put almost all of my sarcasm in parenthesis (but not always).
And yes, I do mix sarcasm, and serious stuff in the same sentence. I really do understand you have a valid point.
But, when I write about NTCC it is difficult for me to write any other way, since there are so may negatives there, and I believe sarcasm and humor often make a point better than not using them. Plus, posting has to be fun for me, or I won't do it.
I hope this helps.
Jeff, I agree with your point, but I already posted an article on their doctrinal statement (as most all of us have), and refuting NTCC's doctrinal statement should have solved the problem, but we all know it hasn't.
Gregory
I liked the points you made about tithe in the article. I think you condensed into a "digestable" single article what probably could have been telescoped out to a few chapters in a book.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I went to another 'holiness' church here in Hawaii today. It was a storefront style with about 3 members (about even on both sides - males and females). The first thing that popped out at me was the veils on the women. They just covered the top of their heads, not the faces. It was pretty holy looking and not really moslem looking. The men were on one side and the women on the other.
Afterwards the pastor asked if I had any questions. The discussion quickly landed on veils. I told him I respected their belief about them even though I believed that the Paul meant the covering was long hair, but I have read in an early church father writing that the Corinthians literally wore veils. He quickly answered that they wore veils in all the churches, and this was standard for the Christian church and the reason Paul only wrote about it in the letter to the Corinthians was because they weren't doing it.
In our discussion he mentioned their Apostle of Jesus Christ. I recalled that he had been mentioning "the apostle" throughout his sermon. Come to find out the sermon was really not written by the pastor, but was basically based off the letter the "Apostle of Jesus Christ" had written to the churches to prepare them for an annual eucharist in Mexico (their headquarters). Is this starting to remind you of anything? To top it all off he said they were going to go sell tacos after the service to raise money to buy a building.
I told him many denominations think their church is the only one, and how did he feel about that? He didn't give me a straightforward answer, but wanted to talk to me some more about it when he has more time to tell me some more things about the church. I take that as a "We are the world's last hope."
I don't know what to think. I am impressed with their holiness, but in light of some of the other things, I wonder if I should be running the other way and never looking back there. What do you think, Bro and Sis Shunk?
big typo. Sorry, I meant they had about 30 in service... not 3.
ReplyDeleteKris,
ReplyDeleteI was wondering about that...how there was an even number on both sides with 3 people.
Gregory
fyi:
ReplyDeleteHip, hip, hooray! Just got a comment from an anonymous poster who confirmed that Rev. Barnes did leave ntcc and is preaching elsewhere.
Same poster also says Rev. Ivory is 'gone' too.
"He set me free, yes, He set me free!
He broke the chains of bondage for me! I'm glory bound, my Jesus to see.... Oh glory to God He set me free!" from the ntcc
GS or DS said:
ReplyDelete"I was wondering about that...how there was an even number on both sides with 3 people."
DnA said:
One was a child and in the ntcc children don't count.
Bro Shunk.
ReplyDeleteGreat info. You convinced me. No more tithing for me.
I used to help with the books in some of the ntcc churches. If memory serves me correct on the weekly report, you reported the number of adults that attended church. I guess children that were born in sin did not matter because they were not old enough to pay tithe.
ReplyDeleteKristofer said,
ReplyDeleteI don't know what to think. I am impressed with their holiness, but in light of some of the other things, I wonder if I should be running the other way and never looking back there. What do you think, Bro and Sis Shunk?
Kristofer,
My response is you have been enlightened and you now can decipher whether these people will put you in bondage. You can decide if you want to over look their doctrine. Time will tell if they'll require your wife to adhere to the wearing of the veil. Do you want to put her through that, and is she willing to comply? You will have to use wisdom, these things you and her will have to talk over. Don't put anything on her that she's not willing to do. BEWARE, if they require you to sever ties with family, and all the other things we were required to do in NTCC. If you and your wife become the target of the message, then I say RUN as far as you can!!
God bless you and may he give you guidance. Feel free to call me by my first name.
Deborah