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| Same Ol' Same Ol' |
Senior Pastor Kekel wrote…”The annual operating cost of the Campground is over $100,000.00, not including the costs of construction mentioned above. One Conference generates approximately $40,000.00, nowhere near covering the costs.” (FYI...income covering 80% of operating cost does almost cover the cost, nice try with the poor-mouthing though...one solution is to receive a special offering each conference where each one of the "1000" gives $10 each conference; this will generate $20,000 per year, so will pay the bills)
Senior Pastor Kekel also shared…”When a thousand people simultaneously erupt in loud worship,-as it happened in this last conference [2010]…” (Bro. Bellamy shares..."If you want to measure success by the increasing numbers then why was Fall Conference 2010 only half full on the men's side? There were more women and kids than there were of men.")
So, Senior Pastor Kekel shared that one conference only takes in about $40,000 in income, and that there are 1,000 people there. Using Senior Pastor Kekel’s numbers:
$40,000 ÷ 1,000 = $40 total income per person per 4 day conference, or $10 spent per person per day.
This doesn't add up, does it?
Consider the following (using some very, very conservative estimates…because if we low ball the total money spent per person, the Math will generate larger attendance numbers, and we are trying to get as close to 1,000 as the Math will allow):
$160 – Total cost of 4 days in an overpriced bare-bones room on the Campground for 2 people.
$20 – Total amount spent per person per 4 days at the fellowship hall (regardless of their billeting arrangements).
$20 – Total amount given per person per 4 days in offering (regardless of their billeting arrangements).
$160 + $20 + $20 + $20 + $20 = $240 – Total weekly Campground income total from 2 people staying on the Campground for 4 days.
$60 (total cost of bunk for 4 days on Campground) + $20 + $20 = $100 – Total income for 4 days on the Campground from 1 person living in the open squad bays.
$20 + $20 = $40 – Total 4 day Campground income per person from those staying off the Campground.
So, the three categories are…Living in 2 man room, living in an open squad bay, or living out in town.
If 100 2 man rooms are rented to people staying on the Campground at conference, that is $24,000 income for the Campground. For a total of 200 people.
This leaves $16,000 income from those staying off the Campground, or in the open squad bays.
If 200 are living in the open squad bay, that is $20,000…Oops, we just went over $16,000. So let’s try 100. 100 is $10,000.
This leaves $6,000. This Mathematically converts to 150 people living out in town. But, I seriously doubt that that many people stay out in town during a conference. But, the more people living on the Campground, the less the Mathematical attendance is. So we will stick with 150 (remember, we are trying to get as close to 1,000 as possible).
200 + 100 + 150 = 1,000 people. Oops…That’s not right; it’s actually 450 people.
Therefore, based on the Math generated by Senior Pastor Kekel’s numbers they have about 450 non-Board-Member-people per conference.
But, let’s round up to 500 since we are trying to get as close to 1,000 people attending conference as possible. So, 500 people attend every conference (now counting the senior leadership).
This is about 40% capacity. The last conference I went too (Fall 2006), the tabernacle was at about 2/3 capacity. This jibes with the verifiable information that is available…that people are leaving NTCC in droves...about a 27% decrease in 6 years.
Regardless of how the billeting is massaged it will stay around 500 people (but not more than about 600)...Based only on the numbers that Senior Pastor Kekel supplied at the beginning of this article.
Is Senior Pastor Kekel using the same old fuzzy-Cult-Math they have been using in Graham when counting attendance? Count all services on any given day to generate the attendance for that day. I.e. 500 show up for the 1st morning service, and 500 show up for the 2nd morning service and Voila – 1,000 in Sunday Morning Service (but ensure you count as many people as possible twice). Yet, they no longer have 2 Sunday Morning Services because attendance has dropped so precipitously.
Unlearned Conclusion: Either they have 1,000 in attendance at each conference (with no double-counting), or $40,000 is raked in during a conference. They both can’t be true. There is a third option…No one stays on the Campground anymore; this would generate 1,000 in attendance, and $40,000.
Remember, since this is very basic Math: If people give more than $20 per conference, and/or eat more than $20 per conference in the Fellowship Hall, the attendance numbers will go down. Less, they go up.
My conclusion is the money ($40,000) is right since the work-of-the-Lord is a business, and the attendance (1,000) is very inflated by about 50 percent.
Gregory
Hard to say but $40,000 does seem realistic. Some folks will give $10 and other will give more an others less. Sure they make money in other areas but those other areas also cost money to exist. It's relative because what the conference does make in addition to the $40,000 estimate is residual money as a result of people getting quote "re-motivated" You lose money when you purchase a rental house but the result is eventual dividends and such is the case with conference. I remember being pretty pumped up in result of the brainwashing that takes place in conference because some serious brainwashing clearly does take place. That is how the NTCC operates; they get in your head and frankly, RWD is pretty good at it.
ReplyDeleteCome on. Well all fell for that dude but now I know he is a crook and a conn artist. I thought that Davis was like Moses. Now I think he is like the seven sons of one Sceva who got jump on by that one crazy dude. LOL. That's R.W. Davis. One of the seven son's of one Sceva. Man the devil don't even respect him and I certainly don't and that's why I jump all over him so often on the internet. Same with Kekel. He is definitely like one of Sceva's sons. He gets jumped on every day. Paul I now and Jesus I know but Kekel is a creep conniving conn artist.
Hi Chief,
ReplyDeleteThanks for commenting. I am not sure I understand your comment. My original post was not clear (my fault).
I was just going off of what Senior Pastor Kekel wrote about recent conferences. And this article only deals with verifying Conference attendance.
Income is income; whether from offerings, room rent, or buying food; he said income is $40,000 per conference. I used this to extrapolate what the likely attendance may be, since (historically) anything Senior Pastor Kekel says is suspect, and must be verified. Plus, no reliable report about conference attendance is available online.
Since it is most likely that Senior Pastor Kekel’s income numbers for one conference are accurate (the Church is a business - RWD), we used that to determine what the real attendance is. We came up with 500, only after being very generous with our numbers, and trying as hard as we could to reach 1,000.
The article isn’t about Senior Pastor Kekel lying; the article is only about verifying the Cults Conference attendance numbers, based only on His quotes.
You know their numbers are way down, I know it, but the Cult says this is not true; that they’re, in fact, growing. Well if it wasn’t true, Senior Pastor Kekel’s conference data would have held up under my cursory scrutiny.
Also, I reworked the article; so it may be more understandable to the 2 or 3 people that may read it. It’s hard for me to write about Math, and probably harder to read about it. And, definitely boring; especially the way I write.
Gregory
So true--it doesn't add up.
ReplyDeleteSince when does ntcc operate 'in the red'? I think if conference was costing the ntcc dough, they would cut it off like anything else.
Either way, kekel is lying about the numbers.
Kekel said,
ReplyDelete"”When a thousand people simultaneously erupt in loud worship,-as it happened in this last conference [2010]…”
DnA said,
I'm sure he just rounded the number, because after all, what are the odds that there were exactly 1,000 people there? Anything over 501 gets rounded off to the nearest thousand.
Gregory,
ReplyDeleteThis is good material, because it illustrates the dynamic of lies and exaggeration which clearly exist in the cult.
For example, " If it takes 10 beers to get you drunk, and you drink one beer, you are 1/10th drunk. You will die and go to he'll just like all the rest of the non-ntcc going sinners. This is a cliche that many ntcc pastors are fond of using. But what about if you twist the truth 10 percent of the time?
Kekel seems to have lying and eXaggerating down to an art form.
Anonymous wrote..."Since when does ntcc operate 'in the red'?"
ReplyDeleteSenior Pastor Kekel has shared online that the Campground, World Missions, and the Trumpet always operate in the red; and have for very many years.
This is also hypocritical, because any other NTCC Churches/Ministries that cannot pay there own bills are assigned new Pastors, or shut down.
I would like to add that if NTCC College students and warehoused Ministers weren't in Graham, the Graham Church would also operate in the red (if they don't already) in less than a year.
In other words Graham Church wouldn't be solvent for long if these 2 classes of people weren't there paying tithe and giving offerings.
Proportionately, there are very few civilians that attend NTCC anymore.
Additionally, the newer Chapel in Graham could not have been built without all of us that gave $2,000 for it.
Also, Rev. Denis is the reason the new Chapel was built. It was his idea how to raise the funds; he was the inspiration for it. Graham Chapel only exists because of Rev. Denis.
Gregory
Gregory said:
ReplyDelete"Senior Pastor Kekel has shared online that the Campground, World Missions, and the Trumpet always operate in the red; and have for very many years."
DnA say:
Well, that is a very interesting factoid that was shared by SP Kekel. It's interesting that the campground could "operate on red" when it is all paid for. How could it possibly operate on red if it brings in 40 thousand bucks? They don't use 40k in electricity. What a liar, Kekel is.
If anything in the org is operating in red, it's definitely not the Kekel estate in Graham. If anything operates in red you wouldn't know it by looking at Kekel's personal estate. Maybe that's why things are operating in red. World missions used to rake in close to $100,000 if my memory serves me correctly. Davis was so tight with that money that many folks in the missionary fields would leak stories of how hard it was to make ends meet, and Servicemen's works were not even considered missionary works. If World Missions operated in the red it was because these so called "non-profit" church leaders who are really cult leaders, have swindled much of our world missions dollars away so they can live large in Graham, where there is no sign that their personal finances are operating in red.
You probably know more about this stuff than I ever will, Gregory. Where does all the world missions money go? I've seen pictures of the Bible school and sanctuary in the Phillipines, and heard testimonies from missionaries over there. Our missionary dollars didn't seem to be working very hard over there or anywhere, so the only conclusion I can draw is that the money is going into Kekel's estate.
If you look at the ntcc as a whole, you can clearly see where the lion share of the money goes, and it's not World Missions or the Camp Ground. It goes to support Kekel and Rwd's lavish lifestyles.
We are not just throwing around baseless allegations or accusations here either. You can see it with your eyes if you visit Graham. You hear about it when people testify of the guitar collections, home furnishings, gun collections, knive collections, expensive cars and recreational vehicles and mansions that these so-called not for profit cult leaders possess.
DnA
DnA,
ReplyDeleteCity/County property tax, City water, electricity, pay for the caretaker, pay for any other helpers, gasoline/maintenance for the tractor(s)/other equipment, routine building maintenance, gravel, grading of the gravel county road leading to the campground's front gate, etc.
So, $100,000 in operating expenses for the year (the Campgrounds are about 145 acres now, and I assume most of it is developed)? I can maybe see a case being made for this, just not for 1,000 people attending a conference.
Gregory
Who knows for certain what the expenses add up to. I'm sure it's quite a bit but the NTCC has a lot of money rolling in from many different areas. Take a little bit from Peter and give to Paul and the camp ground is taken care of.
ReplyDeleteWhat I do know is Kekel and Davis use people and that much is a fact. It's no mystery that Davis has a history of making suggestions about the next watch, gun, or knife that he'd like and people go right out and buy that stuff for him. Briggs even testified to that not that it was any mystery. That's using people. Kekel has folks come to clean is house and there was an order list for people to do exactly that. I know because pastors and or their wifes would talk about it. It was spoke about as though it was an honor to get an opportunity to clean Kekel's house. I'd spit in that guys house and poop in his toilet and not even flush. That's how much respect I have for Kekel. Those guys disgust me because they use people so much.
I see your point Gregory. Still not sure that it would take 100k to cover those additional expenses which you brought up or any others that we are missing. When you consider that the ntcc has a history of not paying much for their own labor. Also if Kekel is going to lie about the thousand, what else is he going to lie about?
ReplyDeleteKekel is a habitual and pathological liar. His letter to Bellamy was full of contradictions, false accusations, assumptions and lies. Kekel would say one thing in one sentence and then later in the same paragraph he would say something that was totally opposite in meaning. Davis is the same way. When their own rules are exposed publicly, people wake up to how outrageous those rules are. This causes a chain reaction. People start questioning these rules and some leave. When people leave there is less money coming into the slush fund. This dictates a need for damage control. Damage control takes the shape of a lie, which usually involves insulting the intelligence of everyone that hears it.
For example, "It was never a rule, it was a policy". Or, "some silly preachers made vasectomies out to be some kind of "noble deed", not Pastor." I truly believe that when Kekel uses buzz words or cliches like "Operating in red", that he does it for a reason, and honesty has nothing to do with that reason. I would assume that his objective here is to convince folks that they could charge a lot more for conferences, so that people will feel better about the money they had to waste getting there. Whatever the case is, if the Campground does "Operate in the red", and I'm not convinced that it does, it is for a very good reason. I would be surprised if World Missions operates in the red, but if it does, it has nothing to do with the ntcc caring for the souls over there.
The fact is that the liar that is telling us these things is getting rich off of people believing his lies. There is no transparency with the money in the ntcc. But Kekel can't hide it all, because we now have satellite images of his mansion. He drives his expensive cars right in front of the very ones he cons out of their money.
So, let's say that Kekel is telling the truth, about the campground and world missions operating in the red. I actually believe that the trumpet operated in the red, but it always costs a little bit of money to pump out propaganda, but the return far outweighs the initial investment. What is accomplished in a conference is much more important than the inconvenience or burden that the attendees must bear to get there. All of the preachers must be kept in line, and brainwashing works a lot better in person when it's done by masters of the trade. Con-Artistry is the trade, and the victims are the ones that are being conned out of their money. Kekel, Davis, Ashmore and anyone else who is getting filthy rich are the beneficiaries. When their bottom line is effected, lies and exaggerations take place in an act of desperation to control the amount of damage that their original lies caused. That's my take, or opinion, on all this, for what it is worth. Great topic.
DnA
does anyone remember back in one conference when he said the water bill was 60000?
ReplyDeleteNo, I don’t remember.
ReplyDeleteOur water bill is about 65¢ per day for 2 people.
This equates to about $812 for 5 days of a conference for 500 people.
So let's say the water bill for a year of conferences is $2,000.
But the caretaker and any helpers generate a water bill every month, year round.
Did you mean to type $6,000? Which would be about $16.50 per day for the whole Campground. This still seems like too much. I don’t think they water the grass at the Campground.
Of course Deb and I live in a city, and the campground is in the country, and I would assume it should be more expensive to pump city water to the Campground.
Did you hear this at a Conference before they got city water? They used to have to get the water tanks filled for conference, and other year round uses. One of the tanks was right next to the Fellowship Hall.
Let’s crunch some more numbers.
Potable bulk water delivery in Arizona is 1¢ per gallon and $95 per hour for the truck. One source said it cost about $850 to fill up a 13,000 gallon pool using these figures.
According to our last water bill we use 60 gallons per day for 2 people. Wow, that seems like a lot. Based on our home usage (we don’t use a clothes washer, our new one hasn’t been delivered and installed yet), the Campground should use about 30 gallons per day for 2 people (we don’t take 5 minute showers or have low-flow toilets, so our usage will be more). This would be 37,500 gallons for 500 people per one 5 day conference, or 75,000 conference gallons per year. For a yearly Conference water delivery cost of about $4,904. So let’s round up to an $8,000 per year water bill (adding another 355 days at 100 gallons per day for 2 people for the non-Conference days) during the pre-city-water era of the Campground.
I am not seeing $60,000. Up to $10,000 yes, for potable year round water delivery back in the day. But, no more than $2,500, for the whole year now-a-days (unless they are watering grass).
Gregory
Or maybe Senior Pastor Davis said the Campground uses 60,000 gallons of water, but you are remembering it as dollars?
ReplyDeleteGregory
Of course, we all know Senior Pastor Davis is intentionally ambiguous, and would not be above telling us all at a Conference that the water bill for the Camp was 60,000 (but 60,000 what), knowing that we would all unconsciously fill in the gaps in the information.
ReplyDeletei.e. $ instead of Gal, and/or a monthly bill instead of a yearly bill.
And we could (worst case) theoretically go away from that service thinking the Campground water bill was $60,000 per month; telling others, and spreading the misinformation he wanted spread.
Then years later he is able to say he never said the water bill for the Campground was $60,000.
Gregory
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteOr, maybe you were talking about something Senior Pastor Kekel said?
Gregory
Maybe they paid 60,000 to be hooked up to the City Water?
ReplyDeleteDeborah
Maybe.
ReplyDelete"$160 – Total cost of 4 days in an overpriced bare-bones room on the Campground for 2 people."
ReplyDeleteThe rooms at camp are not overpriced. 40 a night is not overpriced. Your such a liar.
I would say they are overpriced, so what's overpriced to me may not be over priced to you. One way or the other, that doesn't make anyone a liar. Mike Kekel is certainly a liar and that can be proven and it's not just my opinion.
ReplyDeleteChief
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThe rooms at camp are not overpriced. 40 a night is not overpriced. Your such a liar.
Chief said...
Wow, lots of substance in that statement Anon. You are quite the thoughtful individual. Better not join a debate team.
Chief,
ReplyDeleteA $40 room is not overpriced, until one takes their blindfold off and realizes the Campground billeting is not a good $40 value.
And that is my point, since the rooms are not a good value, they are a rip-off, and therefore overpriced.
Gregory